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There is in the orchestral world quite the continuum of ensembles out there to audition and join, from the most basic and rudimentary groups of volunteers struggling there way through arrangements of pop toons... to the big professional groups touring the world and knocking out top notch recordings of the most challenging material.

There seems to be this gulf in the middle though where it is exceptionally difficult to find an orchestra gig that is not professional (read paid) but where the skill level is high and the people play "professionally". I stopped playing for money years ago, but I take my instrument very seriously, through practice, preparation and respect for my fellow players once we are on the stage.

It can sometimes be demoralizing to play your best in a group when some of the very stereotypical things start to happen that bring the orchestra down. People who don't take tuning seriously, talking loudly during rehearsals, not stopping with the conductor, not watching the conductor, gratuitous ad libs, not ready when the baton comes down, chronically late to rehearsals, skipping rehearsals altogether, instruments in disrepair... you name it, chances are some of you play in groups with these kinds of issues.

I love playing in orchestras and I have to say that I am quite thankful that I am the only member of my section. I am also thankful that my trombone section is very solid and capable. That helps quite a lot.

I suppose in the end, holding the tuba chair in an orchestra that plays fairly advanced and serious rep more than outweighs the downside, but I am just not really sure if there is a happy place for someone who wants to play at a high level but also keep my day job. Is there such a place?

As always tubenet, your advice and wisdom (and humor) is welcome.

I have felt like that for years and still do. The school bands and orchestras that I have played in are almost defined by those things. It sucks, but I can usually just brush it off, give an "Oh well", and play my own part in the ensemble as best as I can. There was one instance where I left a group because the players there were so discourteous. I didn't have to be in that group, so I did have the freedom to leave as I wished.

One thing that helped me a lot was chamber playing, and I would suggest you pursue that. Getting together with playing who, good or bad at the horn, WANT to be there and make good music is a really, really, REALLY nice thing. I love playing in that environment. Cookie-cutter or rag-tag instrumentation, ANYTHING with enthusiastic people is good stuff.

Dear Doldrums, Passive aggressive is a deadend street.Take your gig and make it better. Good orchestras can go through or get stuck in doldrums. Even within an orch you can have some sections on the ascent and another cratering because of attitude, personal s**t,intonation,prep. whatever.I suggest you start small with a few colleagues like minded.ROPA orchestras would be a good model for governance, no need to re-invent the wheel. Have a general meeting with an agenda, and a time limit.Hang out after rehearsal and chat up your ideas over coffee or beer.As a tuba player you mix with all the sections. You can connect across families.I wish you the best, DavidMills, Charlotte

i am so very fortunate to have found such a group. We play literature that any professional orchestra would happily program and we play it at a creditable level. We are not professional musicians, any of us, but we can produce music that is enjoyable to both play and hear. Our woes are financial. Not enough money to properly advertize, pay a conductor, hire soloists, etc. Our last concert was a night of Bizet, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Dukas and Faure to an audience of 89. I am beginning to wonder if anyone wants to hear what I consider good music anymore?

tbn.al wrote:i am so very fortunate to have found such a group. We play literature that any professional orchestra would happily program and we play it at a creditable level. We are not professional musicians, any of us, but we can produce music that is enjoyable to both play and hear. Our woes are financial. Not enough money to properly advertize, pay a conductor, hire soloists, etc. Our last concert was a night of Bizet, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Dukas and Faure to an audience of 89. I am beginning to wonder if anyone wants to hear what I consider good music anymore?

My generic impression of community orchestras is: a group of C+ strings, B+ woodwinds, and A- brass.

WARNING! HIGHLY opinionated material ahead - -> It is my experience that if you need a solid, challenging, musically satisfying large ensemble experience, especially as a tubist, you might be better off in a wind ensemble, wind symphony or brass band. MANY amateur (non-paid) ensembles have weak strings and therfore either the repertoire is less challenging for the tubist (when there IS a part), OR the music is SO difficult that excellent performances are rarely achieved. I understand that there ARE exceptions.

I could be wrong and am ready to accept an opposing view. Discuss away!

tbn.al wrote:Our last concert was a night of Bizet, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Dukas and Faure to an audience of 89. I am beginning to wonder if anyone wants to hear what I consider good music anymore?

Good gig = more in the audience than on stage

In my experience, it's pretty rare to find string players that are not either in or pursuing a professional gig that are competent to handle the level of difficulty in most of the standard rep. That's compounded by the fact that those instruments, when played at a mediocre level, just sound awful. IOW, a mediocre clarinet or trumpet is easier to listen to than a mediocre violin or viola. While definitely still undesirable, I've never wanted to shove ice picks in my ears upon hearing mediocre clarinets or trumpets. I can't say the same about some string sections I've heard. It isn't the string player's fault - it's just damnably hard to sound passable on those instruments without investing an enormous amout of time. Most non-pros don't have that kind of time. Most non-pros didn't have the time to invest during high school or college to get to the level of playing that the standard rep requires in order to sound "good."

Also...there are FAR more high school band programs out there producing competent to excellent wind players than there are high school orchestra programs producing competent to excellent string players.

I am right with you on this. There is not a single community orchestra anywhere within driving distance that has an opening. The few times I get to play with the local community orchestra I end thinking I am glad I'm not in it because of many of the things on your list. I was just thinking about this last night as I was driving home from a rare wind ensemble rehearsal. Decent players, decent literature. I am happy to be a part of it. But why do the players have to talk everytime the conductor stops? Just let the guy rehearse and learn to enjoy the rehearsal process.

Stefan

Stefan wrote: But why do the players have to talk everytime the conductor stops?
Stefan

This * 100

I've played with groups where I literally cannot hear the conductor because of the chatter in the 3 rows in front of me. The worst offenders seem to be the trumpet sections - which are still sorting out "who's playing 2nd Cornet?" DURING THE PERFORMANCE!!!

When the stick stops - all the heads turn sideways and the chit-chat begins. When the stick starts again, the howl goes up "WHERE ARE WE STARTING?"

This current rant calls for a recitation of the Low Brass Players Credo!!1,2,ready go..ok trombones don't rush it..euph's a steady tone please..ahhh,tubas just right. But back to Doldrums..when I was younger and full of piss and vinegar before many of you were born I would loudly whisper chant like "sectional,sectional,sectional"when the rehearsal bogged down in some lick the strings couldn't play. And that still may be one cure for your gig, Doldrums.Propose to your orch that in each concert prep run, there is 1 sectional for strings and another for the rest of you. There will be howling. probably shades of linda Blair, but your winds can get through your stuff and maybe sight-read a Tchaik sym or take up a collection and rent for small money the wbp to Symphonic Metamorphosis. Doesn't cost much if there is no performance. Survey your group and find rep they would like to read. or you could stay home with your tuba in your hand and read tubenet....

I've always thought there are two kinds of groups... Community Bands/Orchestras, and Community Bands/Orchestras...
-- the former being the clique-y, chatty, "who's playing 2nd trumpet," "tubas play the bassoon cues, we don't have any" kinds of groups
-- the latter being more semi-serious, people play often (or at least more than once a week!), and there are a lot of former music majors and serious enthusiasts to make it musically rewarding for everyone involved. The second type can be a little harder to find especially in smaller cities or rural places, but I also think it takes a strong director to make it happen.

One thing that helps a LOT is for players to know the rep in some way before showing up each week. Goodness, with iTunes, YouTube, Amazon... there really aren't many pieces that could/should be a mystery until you've personally decoded them at a rehearsal.

PS -- I've played in the good and the bad... and even the worst ones are still more fun than sitting around at home. My frustration is in the easy changes that can quickly improve the quality of the rehearsal and ultimately the group!

I opt for the community band. You usually get a good mix of people of all ages. In one band that I play in, there are folks who have played in the band for 50 years sitting next to high school kids. The yearly all march concert is a blast. Yes, you even get paid (a little). All players are usually welcome. The high school kids are usually invited based on their bad teacher's recommendation. This is a great retirement gig.

Your comments regarding the antics of the community orchestra reminded me of an email my community band MD sent to all the band members. Band or orchestra, the issues appear to be the same. I posted this over a year a go, but I thought I would share it again.


A gentle reminder- I enjoy having a relaxed atmosphere in rehearsals, and kibitzing comments that involve the whole group are fine. However, I always come with a plan, with things to be accomplished and goals to reach. Private conversations during rehearsals are distracting to me, make it difficult for others to hear, and detract from the focused atmosphere necessary to have a good band. Let's respect each other, and the rehearsal process. Get into the habit of listening when I stop conducting, and our work together will be much more effective and enjoyable. Thanks.

The points made in this thread about playing in both orchestra and band settings are precisely why I only play small ensembles: Brass quintets, Trad Jazz groups, stage pit bands and swing/dance bands. This has been the the case since I left the 195th Army Band (Maine National Guard) in 1989 (just before they were sending some military bands to Iraq for Desert Storm I - whew!).

Personal accomplishment is little valued in a self esteem society. What makes tubenetters and their musical equivalents so different from the norm is their desire to expand personal horizons. I think most organizations simply reflect their members desire for self congratulation and telling their friends that they play in an orchestra. if they thought they played well don't you think they would sell tickets or ask for more community support.
I also have played Mahler 9 with a community orchestra of members playing their hearts out and their a----- off!
I guess in general I have lowered expectations of others and greater expectaions of myself

awaters wrote:I think most organizations simply reflect their members desire for self congratulation and telling their friends that they play in an orchestra.

Sadly this may one of the truest things I have read here, at least in terms of our string players. Like many community ensembles I am fairly sure that the recruiters will prioritize filling the ranks over passing the audition material. I am pretty sure that if I walked in next week with a viola that appeared to be in working order, they would still allow me to sit down and play it. Not gonna happen, but...

The winds and brass are something else. I will draw a line under sloan's grading system. In our case there is very much a B- average across the winds and brass. I dare say that with a couple of strategic assassinations , we could push that over the B+ line. Strangely there seems to be a correlation between lack of skill and rank in this group. In one case, one person who's tuning slide I would like to personally pull out about 35 cents (I leave my iPhone up in tuner mode on my stand) is our personnel manager, a member of the board, and has been in the group for years. I believe his wife runs the ticket counter for our events as well.

I am a geek by day, so I offered to rebuild the orchestra website. That seems to have helped increase the number of auditions we are bringing in and also upped the image of the group a bit. Right or wrong I know I am guilty of taking a group more seriously (without having heard them play) when they have a professional presentation on the internet. First impressions and all that...

I considered rejoining my wind ensemble last year (quite a good one actually), but there were too many scheduling conflicts to allow it. Maybe it is time to look at that again.

I just play for the joy and relaxation.I started playing again after a 40 yr hiatus. I play in a small comm. college orchestra and just feel grateful to be on the back row again. In rural areas you are lucky to play @ all.I too get disheartened @ the B.S. that takes away from practice time but I guess that just comes from being older.We realize time is precious! My time playing makes one feel young and brings back memories.Again i am just happy to be playing so I can tolerate alot! I just feel sorry for our director @ the disrespect he tolerates.I do enjoy the dialogue on this website.

One of the bands I'm in has a pretty good work ethic and still has a lot of pleasure in what we do. A lot of that comes from the director. We're on our second director, and he is if anything even more focused than the founder. That comes across to the band. We have a lot of patience with the real variations in skill level (above a certain minimum). There is a clear expectation that everyone needs to recognize that need for patience, and at the same time that everyone is working to improve their own playing so the band gets better.

Managing an ensemble's culture this way is tricky business. It all starts with the tone the director and board set, I think.