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My community band has a problem.

We have a trumpet player that is just plain bad. And loud. Out of tune, horrendous rhythm, marginal tone, stylistically ignorant. It's bad enough that it ruins the effect of many of the pieces we play. The big problem is that he is also a donor to the band in terms of music purchases and financial donations.

We're doing the first movement of Tchaik's Dance of the Bohemians, and the end of that movement sounds like he has his tongue all the way in the backbore throughout the triple pattern. The notes are so long that a) it causes the passage to phase, b) it sounds like he's slurring it, and c) he is overplaying the rest of the section - to the point that the veins in his purple neck and face make him look like he's going to stroke out.

What are some suggestions to cajole him into changing his ways? The conductor (with whom I hae discussed this) really doesn't know how to do it without calling him out in rehearsal. But the rest of the band has put in a lot of work to really raise the performance standards of the ensemble over the last 2-3 years. It's maddening to have it thwarted by one individual.

I feel your pain. The director might try to speak with the trumpet player in private. Does the player have any close friends in the band? Sometimes a respected peer can privately deliver the bad news. The bottom line is that there isn't much you can do. That's what happens with a community band. He is after all, part of the community.

One thing I always keep in mind when I deal an offending player is to be kind and considerate because one day the offending player might be me.

Good luck.

You could always burn a few CD's with the rep you're playing. That way, the offender can hear what the part is supposed to sound like. Best of luck!

-CT

A lot of this comes down to the conductor and the board.

The board needs a policy about a basic skill level for membership in the band. Then when someone isn't up to it, the board can stand with the director, and it's not a personal thing between the director and the musician. But it is very helpful if the director is comfortable enough in his own skin to say to this person that he appreciates the guy's enthusiasm and love of playing, but he doesn't seem quite ready for this repertoire.

I also like the idea of a recording very much. Here again it takes a lot of sensitivity, along the line of "I need your help to make the band sound as good as possible."

If he's at least fifty, he could be guided toward a New Horizons band if there's one in your area. They're meant to be developmental groups. Or toward a teacher.

This is a really touchy issue. Ultimately, it comes down to whomever, or whatever body is responsible for artistic standards. In a community band, it typically rests on the shoulders of the conductor or artistic advisor. I think the gentlest way to handle this is for the section principal to have a private discussion with the above mentioned body (or person) and have them discuss the issues with the individual. In a professional situation, the individual would have a certain about of time to correct artistic deficiencies. If, after an appropriate amount of time, the artistic deficiencies are not corrected, it is the person's (body's) obbilgation to make a change, or live with the situation.

I wish you luck with this difficult situation.

For his generosity toward the band, give him a gift of 10 private lessons with a top professional player who knows the situation but is not involved.

MileMarkerZero wrote:My community band has a problem....... the rest of the band has put in a lot of work to really raise the performance standards of the ensemble over the last 2-3 years. It's maddening to have it thwarted by one individual.

I founded a community band ten years ago. The basis was to give local amateur musicians an opportunity to socialize and make music with others. Although we have gotten better through the years, we are not continually trying to 'raise the bar'. No one intentionally plays badly although it does happen from time-to-time. We welcome young people, come-back players, and have even encouraged people to 'start from scratch'. The roster now numbers over one hundred and we normally rehearse/perform around fifty-five. Stronger players tend to help the weak players. We don't struggle to be a symphonic-level group but continue to work on timing and intonation.

Aside from The Old Dam Community Band (the group my wife and I founded)... I also play with a professional German ensemble, a high-quality British style brass band, The Hadi Shrine Band, another community band in an adjoining state, a Dixieland ensemble, a low brass quartet, and upon occasion... two youth symphonies.

The Old Dam Community Band continues to be the type of band I had in mind when I founded it.... a 'safe' place for one-and-all to come to socialize and enjoy music without regard to their skill level. There are plenty of groups around for me to play with when I want to be challenged.

Maybe it's time for you to think about forming another group to 'take it to the next level'.

I totally agree with Maestro Schultz. If the group's 'mission' is to be a come-one, come-all band, then so be it. And there is a serious need for this type of ensemble. If the group's mission is to strive for improvement, then there needs to be some policy regarding personnel issues when the bar is raised. As I always caution my ensembles, "If you want me to raise the bar, be darned sure on which side of it you will land if I do."

If someone isn't good enough for this band, then where do they play? (And, no, a New Horizons old-people band is not the answer, especially for someone who may not be that good but who has been playing for decades.) If the band thinks of itself as a musical refuge, then that takes precedent over the objective quality of the music.

Every band has to decide how to handle these types of situations, but they should do so consistently with their objectives. The band in which I play is an all-comers band, and the only encouragement we provide to self-selection is the music we put on the stand. That music is fairly difficult by community-band standards, and so beginners and marginal players usually either try something else until they get better or they hide down in the section until they improve. But occasionally there will be someone who doesn't know what they don't know, and they cause these sorts of problems by playing too loudly, out of time, and out of tune.

One of two types of conflict often emerge from this. Either the other musicians will be frustrated and will either complain or leave, or the music director will be frustrated and complain or leave. One way to avoid the problem is for the all-comers standard and objective to be stated right up front, so that everyone knows what to expect. Often, a better player can sit next to the offender and gently prod them. ("I thought I saw piano marked for that spot." "Isn't that an F#?" "Do we really need to play that cue?" "Why don't we let Fred play this solo lick--he has it down." "It seems to me that this section needs to sound like this--what do you think?" "Hey, it's break time. Play your G#--I think I'm out of tune with you.") A person may have limitations as a performer, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with the respect deserved by anyone else in the community.

If a group has a performance standard for individuals, then it should require auditions and enforce that standard. Such groups should have a policy in place for continually enforcing that standard, using, say, an artistic standards committee, or by re-auditioning every few years. But one thing I have learned over and over is that you cannot establish such a policy just to deal with one established offender. Even if you do, others in the group, even better players, will be offended by the inconsistency of it and it will undermine the group worse than the poor playing from the offender. You can transition the group to a performance group, but that has be the group's will. No volunteer group can or will go where the members don't want to go.

Another thing I have learned is that no matter how bad we think someone is in relation to us, there is someone else out there who thinks of us the same way.

Rick "who has been the bad player in the section at times" Denney

Great Discussion.

Tony "I seems to usually agree with Rick Denny" Clements

This may be a stupid question but... Why doesn't the conductor simply correct the mistakes he is making?

That's how it is in every group I have ever played in. If you make a mistake once, well that's what rehearsal is for. But if you make it twice then either you don't realize your making the mistake or you need help fixing it. It's not personal, everyone messes up sometimes.

tubainty wrote:This may be a stupid question but... Why doesn't the conductor simply correct the mistakes he is making?....

I venture a guess that in most amateur groups... a conductor wouldn't last very long if he/she singled out individuals and took issue with every dynamics/intonation problem. On the other hand... the conductor MIGHT last... but the band wouldn't.

When I play in my community band, I try to help as best I can and tolerate a few wrong notes from others in the section (as if I never played a wrong note!). When I play with a more professional group... especially if I'm getting paid... I fully expect to be chastised if I do wrong.

On the other hand.... what REALLY irks me in my community group is an individual who plays loud simply because he/she thinks it's their responsibility to 'lead the way' and show others how music is to be played.

MileMarkerZero wrote:The big problem is that he is also a donor to the band in terms of music purchases and financial donations.

This comes down to a pretty simple issue: are you better off with both his donations and playing, or without either?

I think the likelihood of separating the two is pretty much zero.

Community band: serious business.

There's 1 in every crowd. Just be glad there aren't 2!

there are some bands in the UK where you find out that you re not good enough when someone else is sat in your seat when you get to rehearsal.
this situation is a bit like having a colleague with body odour: subtle hints don't work, strong hints don't work, someone is just going have to bite the bullet and tell him, it might actually be kinder to be as direct as possible, but remember it is his performance that is rubbish not the man himself!

Uncle Buck wrote:

MileMarkerZero wrote:The big problem is that he is also a donor to the band in terms of music purchases and financial donations.

This comes down to a pretty simple issue: are you better off with both his donations and playing, or without either?

I think the likelihood of separating the two is pretty much zero.

Be nice because the group wants to be remembered in his annual charitable giving and in his will.

I am that "Bad" player, 'cept I know it all too well. I do everything I can to keep up, but I'm in a quintet with folks that can really play. They realize I'm the weak link too and don't get mad, but try to help me every way they can. They let me rewrite the parts, they put up with the clams and they constantly encourage me. There are some good tunes in the book we just can't play because of me. There is one huge reason they don't find another tuba player.......... I own the book. There you go. His non musical contribution is very real.

Truth is TRUTH, guys. You owe this man the truth of how his playing is not right and to tell him what he needs to do to get it right. You owe your brother the opportunity to play the music AS IT IS INTENDED, and to assist him in that. To allow him to continue in his folly is unconscionable. (And if it helps, most people that you tell the truth to, already know that what you're telling them is correct.) It's actually pretty simple to do the right thing.

Uncle Buck wrote:This comes down to a pretty simple issue: are you better off with both his donations and playing, or without either?

I think the likelihood of separating the two is pretty much zero.

I agree that it is unlikely to separate the two, but I don't agree that it is that simple. People react in funny ways. They will consistently complain about a poor player, but then resent it when the conductor (or anyone else) singles them out for "correction". So, when you lose both the playing and the donations, you may well have lost something else important to the group, too. It depends on whether the person is well-liked outside of the playing question. If the guy is a jerk that everyone despises, he probably would have already left in a huff over something or other.

Most people would think it unfair for an all-comers band to dismiss a long-time member because he's "not good enough". Is it an all-comers band or not?

Our conductor always addresses sections in plural. "Tubas, I need your help maintaining the tempo." That's how he'll say it when we are dragging, even when I'm on the only tuba player there that night. If there is an issue with the wrong people being assigned to the wrong parts, he'll work with the section privately to address the issue. When an obviously single person is having a problem, such as one of the percussionists, he'll work with them positively. "I'll give you a cue there." Or "really whack that bass drum in that spot. Try it for me now. <wham> There you go!"

If a person is completely unsuited to the group, he'll work with that person privately not to throw them out but to ask them what their objectives are and then to suggest actions they might consider to achieve those objectives. If they "just want to play", he might suggest that this group programs challenging music that might keep them from being satisfied with the playing experience, and he might suggest strategies for playing in the group more likely to be in line with their objectives. Nobody ever has the objective of being disruptive, so if they are disruptive it's because they are being incompatible with their objectives.

The stated mission of our group is "to provide satisfying musical experiences for our members and audiences". A professional group, or a group that demands high-performing musicians selected by audition, will have a mission that is more like, "to provide the community with superior musical performances". Those mission statements should not be just BS.

Rick "who also thinks heroes do more harm than good" Denney