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I subbed at an orchestra gig last week, and the bass trombonist, also a sub, was using an Edwards independent double valve horn. It was tuned F-D rather than F-Gb. I asked him about the benefits of this configuration - new to my ear and eye - and he said he liked having a low B natural available in first position with both valves engaged. Well, the math works, anyway.

Anyone else use this config or sit next to a practitioner thereof? I'd rather like the option of the extra tubing on my 112H, but it seems a might gadget-esque. I rather like the functionality of a Gb valve for alternate positions. I'm interested to see what you folks think, especially those of you who double.

When I had my 1062 dependent, I had the valves tuned F / Db. This was achieved merely by swapping and pulling the slides. I was playing some charts that had a lot of runs with low B naturals in them, and it put the low C and B towards the middle of the slide.
I think Don Harwood used to have his bass trombone tuned to a low C with just the second trigger, when I saw him in person.

I tune my independent rotor horn to F/G/Eb where as 1st trigger by itself is F, 2nd trigger by itself is G and both is Eb.

MartyNeilan wrote: I think Don Harwood used to have his bass trombone tuned to a low C with just the second trigger, when I saw him in person.

Here it be...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzf0rvQa4Mc" target="_blank

There's a freelancer in maryland who uses a bach 50 with independent thayers tuned F/D/B. It's a heck of a lot of tubing!!

Inspired by an old Olds used in our radio big band I rebuilt my old Sovereign (which came in Bb-G-F-Eb) to Bb-flat E natural-F-C. Allowing for a low A being played as 2nd partial.

When I bought my King 7B, I realised, that the two valve slides could be swapped for a Bb-F-F-C# tuning. The two fourth valves could be adjusted individually so that one was in tune on low F and the other on the C a fifth above. In the end I went with the Bb-Gb-F-D tuning and changed the Sovereign for the same tuning. The surplus tubing was used to take my narrow-bore 1870 Besson Eb from high to low pitch.

Klaus

Maybe not entirely kosher to link to an ongoing auction, but it tells about an approach by Larry Minick:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0549960811

Klaus

My rambling thoughts on the matter-
Bb/F/Gb/D indy- cool
Bb/F/G/Eb indy- also cool, no downsides compared to the above
Bb/F/D(C/...) indy- unless you're playing only contra parts whats the point? too many bass parts are really only "3rd tenor"
Bb/F/D dep- works
Bb/F/Db dep- I don't see the point as you're making the dep. valve less useful, if it's done to bring in low B, well now you just put the far more common low D right about where B is on a Bb/F/D
Bb/F/Eb dep- makes more sense than the above, if you've going to have a dependent valve that by virtue of what it is gets used somewhat rarely, why not make it a bit more useful
Bb/F/E dep- best option in a Bb horn for Bartok!

Indy options I have considered-
Bb/G/Eb/Db (reverse the 2 valves?)- lots of potential with the short valve for quicker stuff in the staff and the option of playing Eb-B on 1 valve
Bb/F(dependent Eb)/D///Bb/F(dependent Eb)/Gb- now we're talking! double thumb for the F and dependent valve, short indy valve on the finger, SOOO many options down low, this with open valves would be -the- bass trombone to use in brass quintet!

What I run now-
Bb/F .547- I wish I had a 2nd valve on here for low C's in my rock band. Horn is very front heavy, painfully so.
Bb/F/D bass- Still front heavy, D is flat. It works.
F/C/Db contra- Much more comfortable than the bass since so much of the weight is on my shoulder or behind me. I'm interested in getting the Db valve cut down a bit to try the Bollinger tuning. As it is I use both valves most of the time because I don't like 3' slide shifts though I do use 5th position occasionally. For reference this horn has a solid 6th position, no 7th, and no low low F with both valves.This is my most played trombone by far. F/D/Bb also has it's merits (I would prefer F/Bb/D to match a Bb/F/D bass) especially since it seems most German bass trombonists play bass like a big tenor and contra like a big bass.

jeopardymaster wrote:I subbed at an orchestra gig last week, and the bass trombonist, also a sub, was using an Edwards independent double valve horn. It was tuned F-D rather than F-Gb. I asked him about the benefits of this configuration - new to my ear and eye - and he said he liked having a low B natural available in first position with both valves engaged. Well, the math works, anyway.

I thought intune F/D gave a very flat B natural?

Jeopardy, if you play almostonly tuba and very little trombone you might consider a Bb/G/Eb/Db tuning. G is more useful than Gb, and C and B would be closer in.

Jeopardy, if you play almostonly tuba and very little trombone you might consider a Bb/G/Eb/Db tuning. G is more useful than Gb, and C and B would be closer in.

That is intriguing. But I also have a 71H single valve bell - and switch to the 112H when called for. Having horns so different (F versus G on the thumb valve side) would mess with my head too much. I'll look for a pipe to slide into my Gb valve to bring it down to D when I want it, but it isn't at the top of my Christmas list.

ZNC Dandy wrote:

MartyNeilan wrote: I think Don Harwood used to have his bass trombone tuned to a low C with just the second trigger, when I saw him in person.

Here it be...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzf0rvQa4Mc" target="_blank" target="_blank

That reminds me of this quote I have read on the trombone forum:
"If Antonio Stradivari had been a plumber he would have built bass trombones."

My Reynolds stacked double-trigger can be set up as Bb-F-E, Bb-F-Eb, Bb-F-D, Bb-F-Db, and Bb-F-C. The only Reynolds in the world that can do that with factory-made extensions. I had one studio recording session about 35 years ago during the course of which I used each of them at least once except maybe the Bb-F-E. I found the Bb-F-D to be the best overall setup.

My Olds inline can be set up as Bb-G-F-flatEb, Bb-G-E-D, Bb-Gb-F-D, Bb-Gb-E-Db, Bb-F-Eb-C, Bb-E-Eb-flatC, Bb-F-D-B, Bb-E-Db-Bb, Bb-G-D-C, Bb-G-Db-B, Bb-Gb-D-B, and Bb-Gb-D-flatC. All with stock factory-made parts. (Don't think I missed any, but I might have.) I don't even begin to use all of them! I rarely use anything but the Bb-G-F-flatEb and on those rare occasions when I venture away, it's with the Bb-F-Eb-C setup. It came stock as the Bb-G-F-Eb but the two valve tuning slides are the same bore and width, so they're interchangeable, allowing a Bb-Gb-F-D setup which a lot of players like. The F pulls to E (as long as you use the longer tuning slide which forces you to leave the other trigger in G), so you get to put that into play. Then there's a stock extension that will take the second trigger from G down to Eb or, when fully extended, to D. Then you can leave the first trigger in F or pull it to E. If you put that extension on the first trigger, it moves it from F (or E) down to D or, when pulled, Db. I'm not going to spend the time it would take to thoroughly explore each of those and get familiar enough with them to feel comfortable actually using them, but it does make for the potential of a lot of useful occasional applications.

I have a question on changing the setup of your instrument, that is, adjusting the slides so that, for example, you have an E instead of an F, or something similar.

How do you get the new positions into rote memory? That's my biggest problem as I age....it just takes forever to get a new set of fingerings down, and fast runs seem to be a thing of the past. I still use horn fingerings on the euph at times, trying to play a (concert) C open and stuff like that, and I haven't played horn in a couple of years now.

So is this something that you "just do" or is there some trick to it?

MA

LJV wrote:Go figure, I didn't even know you could tune a bass trombone. I thought there were just two settings. "On" and "Off."

OUCH! Let's not get personal.

Maybe someone else addressed this, although I th think I read through all of this.

Whenever I have added an extension to the Gb slide to get D out of the second valve, I have noticed a stuffier experience. This has happened on both rotors and Hagmann valves.

I know that the math doesn't support this statement, but when I have played BBb in 2 triggers (F,Gb), there is a different feel than 2nd trigger 5ish with extension. Part of this will be due to two valves as opposed to one, but I still feel a difference that I prefer to avoid if possible.

MaryAnn wrote:I have a question on changing the setup of your instrument, that is, adjusting the slides so that, for example, you have an E instead of an F, or something similar.

How do you get the new positions into rote memory? That's my biggest problem as I age....it just takes forever to get a new set of fingerings down, and fast runs seem to be a thing of the past. I still use horn fingerings on the euph at times, trying to play a (concert) C open and stuff like that, and I haven't played horn in a couple of years now.

So is this something that you "just do" or is there some trick to it?

MA

A lot of it comes from understanding how the change works, then learning the details and using it enough to create a "gear" for it. It's like playing tennis and racquetball. If you just play tennis and then go for racquetball, you'll keep missing the ball. Vice-versa, you keep hitting the ball with the throat. Or like going from a stick shift to an automatic, remembering which you're in and whether or not you need to use the clutch and gear shift. You have to alternate both on a regular basis so you learn to "switch gears" quickly and easily. Changing instruments and/or tunings results in problems if you don't keep them fairly fresh. I'm all over the map on things like that and that does help in settling in fairly quickly into whichever "gear" I need to use.

LJV wrote:Go figure, I didn't even know you could tune a bass trombone. I thought there were just two settings. "On" and "Off."

That's contrabass, not bass.

There are probably several strategies for the tuning of and the useage of bass trombone valves. Some players are experts in adapting their instrument for specific repertory situations. One sample would be players only putting the second valve on their instruments, when the low B natural is in a part.

My practicing involves scales and intervals across the tough shift from the open pedal to B natural one semitone up from there. And as I also play valeless and single valve trombones, I basically never use valves, where the slide will do. And I never use two valves, where the slide and the fourth valve will do. I don’t call it the F valve, as it is a Bb valve on an Eb trombone and a D valve on a G trombone.

On my two double valve bassbones, which are both in Bb, the tuning is Bb-Gb-F-D. My test whether my lip and air are working well is about being able to play smooth legatos from open pedal Bb to the same note with all valves and almost fully extended slide. And back again on the same breath.

These rules involve some long shifts. If certain written figures can be done in an easier fashion, I will involve valves more. The second partial Bb often is more easily played by the F valve plus long 3rd. Especially in sharp keys.

Klaus

Mary Ann asked: How do you get the new positions into rote memory? That's my biggest problem as I age....it just takes forever to get a new set of fingerings down, and fast runs seem to be a thing of the past.

Yup. I don't know if I ever could - I definitely don't trust myself to be able to do it now. There just isn't enough time to acquire new facility when I can barely maintain what I had!

Yah. And the examples of switching from tennis to racquetball and back....have trouble with those too, so I think it's an across-the board thing. But....I can switch from euph to oboe in the same concert (just did that, playing euph on a needed bassoon part when there was only one oboe part) with no problem. I guess it's the similarities that trip me up, while other people would have trouble with things I don't (friend who plays both euph and bassoon needs a good 24-36 hours in between.) And the reading by pitch instead of fingering is probably a different approach than most use, too. But I don't play tennis by pitch....

MA