Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

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Ferguson
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Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by Ferguson »

I'm feeling writey...

When I was in college in the 1980's, all my tuba playing colleagues used rotary F tubas. Mostly they were B&S and Miraphone as I remember. What I do remember clearly is that the low range felt terrible on all these tubas. The worst note was the fourth valve low C, and there have been countless threads of discussion about this on Tubenet, as well as in numerous bars worldwide.

I understand why people put up with this: rotary tubas have a liveliness to their sound that is incomparable, it's the traditional German style tuba, for years it was all that was available, and historically F tubas were not the do-it-all instrument that many players expect today.

Rotary F players all say they just learn to deal with it. Fine. What surprises me is that with prices for many F tubas hovering around $10000 USD or more, players still put up with this odd feeling low range. And makers have done little about it. I played an Alexander F tuba at the Musikmesse this year, and while it was a beautiful instrument, when I fingered notes from D and C, I could really play any note. It just didn't center. I could force the pitch down, like I was settling into a trough, but there was no top to the trough, and it was odd. A good player would probably do fine with it, but after playing piston F's and various CC and Eb tubas, it bugs me. I also went to the B&S/Meinl Weston display, and to me, every rotary F tuba they made, while beautiful and generally a good player, had the very odd feel on the low C, just the same as 20+ years ago when I first tried them. Isn't anyone working on improving this?

Miraphone has had great success with their Firebird F tuba. While not perfect, the low C and surrounding notes do center in well. Their older 181 F tuba is not quite up to that standard, as it's similar to the B&S/MW F tubas. Many of which are based on the 181, so I hear. The model 180 is still funky though. I get it. It's a solo tuba. Still, I figure they'd look into this.

A few years ago I fell in love with the little red brass 3/4 F tuba from Cerveny, the model 753. It was fairly cheap, played low just fine, and had a big sound for a little tuba. I finally ordered one, but when I got it - you guessed it: wonky low C.

I've watched Kanstul make adjustments to the taper of his new tubas to solve some problems on the prototypes. He's been tinkering with the taper here and there, pinching the bore at a node, and it reminded me of another tinkering session.

When I was at Miraphone earlier this year, I tested the new 6/4 BBb tuba. It's awesome, but a few notes didn't center quite right. Markus Theinart thought maybe the bore was too big, and had some sleeves made to fit inside of some of the tuning slides. This would narrow the bore a bit, at least for some of the straight tubing. There would be some errors of course, but he thought it might help them see if they were on the right track. I have some video of this testing session I'll try to post someday.

All this leads to tonight. I'm in my office late, glaring at this Cerveny 753 F tuba which needs a dent taken out, and I looked closely at the bore coming out of the 4th rotor. The knuckle exiting the 4th rotor is oversize compared to the rest of the rotors, and then a large tuning slide sleeve is attached to the outside of that. The tuning slide sleeve is almost 6" (15cm) long, then on the other side of the tuning bow, there's another sleeve even longer. There's no nice way of saying it: there is some serious error of taper in this tuba. And not just this one. I pulled up some pictures of other rotary F tubas, and they all have this straight sleeve right after the 4th rotor. The only one that doesn't is the old Miraphone 180. It has a loop after the 4th rotor, like a 186 CC tuba. But it fails down low too. Obviously there's some error there as well.

I think that's the problem. There's an error in the location or size of the straight tubing after the rotors. So what about tapering that tuning slide sleeve on the Cerveny? Or perhaps just making it smaller would do. I don't have any extra brass tubing to insert in there, but I remember an old product, a tube made of thin plastic, that slipped inside a trombone tuning slide sleeve to adjust the response. So I made one for this Cerveny. Some Trader Joe's chocolate covered raisins in a plastic box next to my desk were promptly eaten, and I cut a little square out of the plastic, about 2x2" (5x5cm). I rolled it up, and stuck it inside the tuning slide sleeve, right at the end where it butts up against the 4th rotor.

It was a plastic box like this. Who knew it was perfect for making little shims to roll up and place inside the tuning slide:

Image

Here is the cut up box, some shims, scissors, and a probe to remove errant shims:

Image

And you know what happened?

This Cerveny has a roaring low C! I fooled around with different sizes and placement of my rolled up plastic squares, and found a place that seems to fix the C, but doesn't affect other notes much or at all.

Think how much better this might work if I actually get a short sleeve of brass tubing to fit in there.

The plastic shim ready to be installed:

Image

The shim inside the tuning slide sleeve. The best position was with it pushed all the way in:

Image

Here's a closeup of the step up in bore from the 4th rotor to the tuning slide. Somewhere after this point is the low C error:

Image

The offending Cerveny. Notice how long the tuning slide sleeves are. Some other F tubas are similar:

Image

As I type this, I'm playing with an old Miraphone 180 F tuba I have here. It's not just any 180, it's Roger Bobo's, with one with the Besson bell on it. Its low C is OK, but it could be better. I'm actually having some success on this one too, by placing the little sleeve in the small side of the tuning slide.

Could it really be that I'm solving an age old tuba problem for the price of a plastic box of raisins? (And I still get to eat the raisins.)

Protip: I have a little poker, pictured above, sort of like a sharp bicycle spoke with a bend at one end, so I can catch the edge of the plastic shim and pull it out. Without this, I might be sad.

So, has anyone tried this, either with the shims like I made, or piece of tubing? Has adding a small amount of (rough) taper to the straight portion of your horn improved it? More importantly, why haven't the makers of $10000 tubas been playing with simple ideas like this to improve their designs?

Steve (who looks forward to receiving abuse from tubists who have little squares of plastic stuck inside their horns) Ferguson
Last edited by Ferguson on Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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cjk
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by cjk »

I had the lower 4th valve slide and the small side of the main tuning slide sleeved on my 6/4 Meinl-Weston CC tuba. That decision was based on advice I received on TubeNet.

I later removed the sleeve in the main tuning slide.

I have the sleeves in the lower 4th valve slide beveled on one end and have the bevel into the air stream.

The low G absolutely roars on my tuba.

I think that in the case with my tuba, the 4th valve bore is just too big. The sleeves step it down to where it probably should be.

Christian
Last edited by cjk on Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by Bob Kolada »

Every (one... :oops: ) 653 I've played has had a fine low C as is, comparable to the results of a very good bass trombone on the same pitch. And just about every 653 owner I've spoken to has confirmed this.
Maybe that is a factory error on your horn, Steve?

FWIW/..., I greatly prefer the 653 to the Firebird and just about every other F I've played except the Miraphone Petrouchka.
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by bort »

Holy crap, hey Bob! Long time no post!

The low C on my 653 is great...It might not be the best note on the entire tuba, but far better than the low C on most other rotary F tubas I've played. I've never considered it a trouble note. The pedal CC is solid and not a problem either. Might be a little curious to see if it could be even better... but... not enough to really do anything about it. :)
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by k001k47 »

I think a better solution to that low C would be to go see an instructor. :P

I'm always skeptical when I see mass produced sleeves, but after skimming through this post, I suppose they really do work. Now if only there was a way increase sections of the bore so easily. :x
Have my fingers crossed for a comeback of the big leather belt.
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by bisontuba »

Hi-
Excellent post & pictures Steve.

My kind of solution--simple and cheap--or you could go for this:

http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils/" target="_blank

"bloke"...and the explanation for seemingly thoughtlessly-constructed tubas that rock-and-roll out of the box...???--- the usual reason for German made items (I am part German, so I can say this)--TRADITION :wink:

mark
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by MartyNeilan »

The low F on my Cerveny Harmonia is a little funky, but once you get accustomed to it (first couple of days) is feels and plays fine. And, I can hit is consistently as hard as I want to, especially in the Vaughan Williams cadenza if you want to startle the audience out of total silence. One thing that I did find helpful was adding an extra brace to the fourth valve circuit to take out unwanted sympathetic vibrations on a large exposed loop of tubing. I seem to remember Lee Stofer did some extra soldering on a Rudy 5/4 F a few years ago to tighten up the low C on it.
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by Rick Denney »

cjk wrote:I had the lower 4th valve slide and the small side of the main tuning slide sleeved on my 6/4 Meinl-Weston CC tuba. That decision was based on advice I received on TubeNet.
That may have come through me. I mentioned that it was not particularly uncommon to sleeve the fourth valve branch on the Yorkophones that have .810-bore tubing. I've thought of it in the case of the Holton, though I'm not sure the low F speaks more easily fingered 1-3 than it does fingered 4.

The more I play my B&S F tuba, the less the feeling of the fourth valve bothers me. I really have no issue with it at this point. I'm not sure it's exactly like the low-F issue on the Holton. The F on the Holton resonates with a fat, monstrous sound when you feed the air into the resonance rather than trying to blow past it. I don't really get that same resonance response with the low C on the B&S--it still feels a little hollow compared to the low C on a contrabass. But the sound is there.

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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by tclements »

I LOVE this fix. Simple, yet elegant, and it actually works! Thanks, Steve!
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by MartyNeilan »

Ferguson wrote: The offending Cerveny. Notice how long the tuning slide sleeves are. Some other F tubas are similar:

Image
I am wondering if one of the reasons that the tuning slide is so long is because these are the newer generation, more "compact" F tubas. My older Cerveny F is taller overall, so the slide does not seem as disproportionately long. When the horns got shorter, the extra tuba had to go somewhere to keep the pitch the same.
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by Alex C »

Ferguson wrote:
So, has anyone tried this, either with the shims like I made, or piece of tubing? Has adding a small amount of (rough) taper to the straight portion of your horn improved it?
Not an F tuba but I had a Yorkbrunner which had a hole in anything in the low register with the 4th valve. It came with a couple insert tubes which were supposed to have been supplied by Hirsbrunner.

A friend of mine wasn't a purist and putzed the inserts in a combination that made the low register work very comfortably for a 6/4. I could not believe the difference.

There were two inserts (if I remember correctly) and one fit in the tuning slide before the fifth valve and the other was inserted in the main tubing before the 5th. I don't remember what combination worked but it was very sensitive and only worked one way.

I have always wondered if there was a way to fix all those funky Euro F's. Keep posting!
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by chronolith »

How thick is the plastic on the cut up square?
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by Wyvern »

Although very sceptical, this post made me try my PT-15 with plastic sleeve. If anything I thought it made the low C worst on this model, seeming to add an unintended vibrato to my playing.

However I then thought "why narrow the main tuning slide when it is no wider bore than the 4th valve slide"? So I then tried the plastic sleeve in the 4th valve slide instead and that for me seemed to produce an improvement - a more focusing note - very nice. :) So I have left in place and will see how I find in everyday use.

Very interesting and possibly useful post Steve!
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by J.c. Sherman »

This would seem to me to be an argument to try out a reversed tuning slide on a traditional German F. it would delay the taper, and could be more easily made to taper into the crook evenly and more effectively shimmed to boot to boost the effect.

I've long been used to the "German F" feel down there... my own has that on D/Db especially. But it couldn't hurt. Hmmm....

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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by iiipopes »

I can't find the link, but wasn't there a website recently, or at least a couple of years ago, that sold something very similar in an internal plastic sleeve to position at the right nodal point to help intonation?
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by joh_tuba »

Not a single reference to the 'Acousticoil'?

This idea has been around for a couple decades.
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by bisontuba »

Hi-
I put the link for it in my response.
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by pgym »

joh_tuba wrote:Not a single reference to the 'Acousticoil'?
You mean other than by:

LJV » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:13 am:
LJV wrote: Remember those old "AAIIRR Acousticoils?"
and

jonesmj » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:10 am:
jonesmj wrote: My kind of solution--simple and cheap--or you could go for this:

http://www.dmamusic.org/acousticoils" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
?
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by jonesbrass »

I have to agree with Bob and Bort on the 653 . . . low C rocks. As a matter of fact, the low range is fantastic. The sleeve idea is a good one, though, if I ever need it.
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Re: Solving the troublesome low C on a rotary F

Post by Wilco »

More proof it really works :)

I recently bought a Hirsbrunner bbb (HB1 compensator). I love it, but some low notes do not center well (especially low Ab). I went ahead and did exactly what Steve did and voila: low Ab centers :).
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