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I am a returning tuba player after 15 years without touching a horn. I am playing on a Weril 3/4 CC with a Helleberg MP. The issue that I am having is that after more than about 15/20 minutes of playing I start to split tones in the middle range say Eb - Bb. I can feel a strange flutter in the lower lip and have to pull back into a very wrong and uncomfortable embouchure to get a good steady tone in that range (bottom lipped sort of tucked under upper lip). Upper register is fine (maybe a bit sharp), no need to exert pressure. Low range is also fine.

I previously played on a 24AW for marching and a Helleberg for concert, but that was a long time ago. Now that I am closer to 40 my face has changed just a little bit from when I was in college.

I am working on strengthening my embouchure, mouthing buzzing, leadpipe only buzzing, slurring exercises etc. But I do not think the Helleberg is working well for me at all. I am looking at switching to a either a Bach 24aw or the 18.

Any suggestions on how to strengthen the embouchure would be welcome, or if anyone has any particular experience with a tone splitting problem like this you input would be appreciated.

I know mouthpiece choices are a balance between the player and the horn but any advice on that end would also be welcome, particularly if you experienced this splitting issue with some but not other mouthpieces.

Thanks

Well, having played on both a 24AW and a Shilke-Helleberg over the years, what I've found is that the AW is a very comfortable, forgiving mouthpiece that will allow me to play for extended periods of time, and give me a more "orchestral" sound than a S-H. The downside of the AW for me is a loss of flexibilty, which I blame on that wide, round, comfy rim...all mounted on a fairly narrow cup.

The S-H, on the other hand, really brightens my sound, allows me to jump all over the range of the instrument that I use, and affords me much more flexibility. The downside? My intonation goes extremely sharp in the low register, and the same flat, edgy rim that allows me to jump all over the place also is a very tiring one. If I have slacked off on practicing for a while, the S-H is most unforgiving in the embouchure department. And in that mode, a basically sound embouchure is most critical with the S-H. No mush allowed.

The rip/wobble you are experiencing? Maybe it just indicates a need for more mouthpiece time. I also noticed that, as I got older, ( I am now 58) my bottom lip would start to quiver with the S-H, especially on lower-register, soft, sustained notes, almost like my arm would if I had been lifting heavy weights for a period of time. Usually when I hadn't practiced enough...

I like to think Carmine Caruso exercises help in embouchure-building. A trumpet-playing friend introduced them to me back when he was taking lessons in NYC from Carmine. Long time ago...

So, there you have my opinion... You can get a thousand different opinions, but you know what they say about opinions...

Bottom line, I'd just keep practicing and not worry about it.

Long, slow, lower-register boring tones. Concentrate on maintaining a full, centered tone, along with a firm, focused embouchure. Use LOTS of focused air!
Don't let the embouchure collapse at the corners of the lips. Play into a tuner with a VU meter, and attempt to hold the needle still with a consistent, full, sonorous, supported tone. I think it may have been Mr. Bill Bell who used to have students put corks between their upper and lower back teeth so they could get the feeling of keeping the jaws open to help produce the full tone he was looking for...I could be wrong about that...I am not recommending the practice, either...somebody might choke!

Unless you have some major gig coming up. Then I still wouldn't worry about it. Just practice more...
Almost forgot: I am now playing on one of Dave Houser's "Symphony" mouthpieces, with a Helleberg rim...

"keep playing and don't worry about it"

It will go away...

gocsick wrote:Any suggestions on how to strengthen the embouchure would be welcome, or if anyone has any particular experience with a tone splitting problem like this you input would be appreciated.

Face time. There simply is no substitute.

Practice things that are VERY easy, and practice them VERY slowly. Record yourself and try to consistently make the best possible sound you can. Work on the purest possible tone with no extraneous "fuzz" in it. Try playing bottom-line G over and over for an hour straight with an emphasis on pure tone.

Doesn't that sound simple?

P.S. Oh, yeah...don't forget to practice playing softly. Most players forget that.

I've noticed a similar thing. I have a Denis Wich 3 (similar to the 24AW) and a Bach 18. I found that practice is the thing. Actually the Denis Wich is harder for me to manage and the Bach 18 is easier to control. The DW gives me much better tone. I use the specific warm-up books to help build strength. It just takes time.

The splitting thing was my biggest issue when I returned to playing tuba 10 years ago after 20 years of just occasional trumpet playing. I have found that as I play more it happens less, but that the tendency also returns when I have a short layoff ( a week or so). I remember thinking at the time that it was the horn, then that it was the mouthpiece, then having a professional friend tell me (after trying out my horn and MP) that it sounded fine to him. So like others here I must agree that it is all about face time. I would tell you, though, that after the 10 years of working at it I am a finer player now at 54 than I ever was when I was in college, and that it was all worth it. Keep at it - it will come.

It happens to everybody. It's happened to me before concerts in warmup. Your horn and mouthpiece are fine. As a matter of fact, it's a good combination.

What everybody else has said: long, soft to moderate dynamic, well intoned and supported tones with as little mouthpiece pressure as possible consistent with getting a good "seal" to the embouchure. Make sure the mouthpiece is centered correctly on the embouchure. Start with 1/2 & 1/2, and then slightly move it up or down if necessary to find your most comfortable spot, but not more than 1/3 & 2/3 either way. Think the big "OH" inside your mouth, relax the back of the tongue, and concentrated on slow, steady air.

Now, here's the kicker: until your embouchure starts locking back in, DON'T OVERDO IT! Just like building up any other pair of muscles to work together, a balanced workout over time is what is required. If you overdo it, you risk subconsciously falling into one or more bad habits, including too much pressure, "smiling" instead of firming the corners, using one lip too much at the expense of the other, etc. This will set you right back to sounding like a buzzsaw.

Good luck. We've all been there. It will work itself out with proper practice.

Thanks for all the suggestions, and encouragement. I will keep working at it. I tend to remember how well I eventually played some pieces in my youth and not how much I struggled to get there. Not to mention that back then I was able to put in more than an hour of playing time daily. Right now I am lucky if I can sit down for more than a couple of minutes at a stretch.

When our monday 2 hour rehearsal rolls around it really kicks me in the lips so to speak. Once I get tired and frustrated, my playing goes to hell and then I get even more frustrated.... ad infinitum. Now that I have really been thinking about it, while reading everyone's response, I am pretty sure that if I could just relax my mind and really think about what I am doing, rather than cringing at my mistakes, 75% of my problems will go away.

Well, a very famous Tubista of a Major Symphony Orchestra once admitted at a seminar that even he noticed a quiver in his tone once in a great while, which he attributed to advancing age...

...So, I think it was Roger Bobo that once made reference to the fact that we spend so much time dissecting our mechanics and other such esoteric details of our playing technique that we forget to just have fun and play the horn. Paralysis by analysis...

...Just think back to when you first started playing the Tuba, and what fun it was...especially the away marching band bus trips...