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What is this? I have seen many tubas that say they are cut from a BBb to a CC. Is it a bad thing when they get cut down to a different key or is it ok? For example would getting a vintage 6/4 BBb York and cutting it down to a CC be considered bad or same with a Conn?

I am by no means an expert or even somewhat educated on this, but here I go anyways...

Having a tuba cut means you shorten all the slides so that it may function in a given key. It involves not only reducing the main tuning slide, but also the length of every valve needs to get shortened as well. This works with some horns, but the fact is that you are taking a horn that was specifically designed to play in a certain key and changing it.

A CC tuba is a CC tuba

A BBb tuba cut to CC is still a BBb tuba cut to CC, not a CC tuba.

BAtlas wrote:It involves not only reducing the main tuning slide, but also the length of every valve needs to get shortened as well.

That's only part of it. Yes, the valve slides usually need to be trimmed down, but that doesn't shorten up the overall bugle. The bulk of the actual cutting involves removing material ("cutting") the main bugle (meaning the "open" horn) to play "up to pitch." I don't remember the exact mathematical length, but seem to recall that between 12 and 18" of open horn has to be removed. That's a lot more than you'll get by cutting up the main slide.

Some cut jobs work, others are miserable failures. The cutter not only has to know what they are doing, they have to get really lucky to get everything to come together to make a great cut CC tuba. There is a lot of "voodoo" to it.

The general rule of thumb is that if it's a good BBb, don't risk destroying it by cutting it down to CC. Along the same lines, if it is a "bad" tuba, cutting it to CC isn't going to "fix" it.

EDIT: I don't think cutting is nearly as in vogue as it used to be. In my opinion there is really no need to cut tubas these days. Really great tubas are readily available from the factory in a variety of keys and configurations from tiny F tubas to gigantic 6/4 CC or BBb tubas. I wouldn't cut up any tuba (York, Conn, whatever) that played great the way it was.

A few years back I posted an inquiry on why people wanted to cut BBb tubas to CC, asking wouldn't it be easier to just learn new fingerings. I got some replies telling me that most cut tubas started out as very worn three (usually top) valve BBb instruments with little market value. On the other hand, good five (front) valve CC tubas have good market value (more so than four or five valve BBb tubas). Thus, the financial incentive to start with a cheaply-obtained BBb body, add a five valve cluster, add a lot of skill, and sell at a profit.

Tubenetter Rick Denney has a great web site that includes a story about his project to cut a tuba (from Eb to F). It is: http://www.rickdenney.com/ricks_tuba.htm

Allen

Sam Gnagey has had much success cutting older King 2341 BBb tubas to create very well playing CC tubas. One of his methods of shortening the main ("open") tubing used to be (probably still is) to replace the BBb bell and bell "throat" with one from an old "monster Eb" type tuba. Sam has rescued, restored, yea verily even "resurrected" many old BBb tubas, turning them into solid CC horns. He also has the ability to create a cimbasso from a variety of old instrument parts as well.

I looked for a link via google, but was not immediately able to find out if his tuba operation has a web site or not....

FYI.

Wade -

I think you make a fantastic argument. I also second the idea of how expensive it truly is to do this, be it parts, labor or a combination of the two.


I think that it is also true that poorly playing horns rarely play any better after having been cut down.

Dibs on one - eventually.

Good points, Wade.

Since Sam uses Eb bells 'n' bows, that gets plenty of those instruments out of closets and back (partially) in use as well as worn out three banger BBb horns.

I have never really understand this desire to cut tubas into different keys BBb to CC, or Eb to F. It is a lot safer, faster and cheaper just to learn to play it in whatever key the tuba was made.

I can only see worth doing, if completely rebuilding the tuba anyway, like from top valve to front valve - then I suppose no harm in changing key at the same time, because as it is being rebuilt, the results will be uncertain anyway.

I see what Sam Gnagey does of basically building a custom tuba from miscellaneous component parts as something rather different.

A project like what I did with a TA to FA tuba wasn't that hard to do nor was it destructive. I am a firm beleiver that is you own something and intend to hold on to it regardless of the results, go ahead and do whatever the hell you want to it. If you want to take a Hand made MW6450 CC and put a 21J top action valve set into it go ahead, it's your tuba. I did my project because the tools, materials, skill, and parts became available to me and I wanted the experience. My tuba did come out as a decent playing horn (as it started as one) I did lose a bit of length so I have the slide pulled out pretty darn far but hey, for a homemade "chop job" with no repair experience to start it made me happy, and that's all I could ever ask for

tubatom91 wrote:A project like what I did with a TA to FA tuba wasn't that hard to do nor was it destructive. I am a firm beleiver that is you own something and intend to hold on to it regardless of the results, go ahead and do whatever the hell you want to it. If you want to take a Hand made MW6450 CC and put a 21J top action valve set into it go ahead, it's your tuba. I did my project because the tools, materials, skill, and parts became available to me and I wanted the experience. My tuba did come out as a decent playing horn (as it started as one) I did lose a bit of length so I have the slide pulled out pretty darn far but hey, for a homemade "chop job" with no repair experience to start it made me happy, and that's all I could ever ask for

Tom, I totally agree with you--its your horn to do with as you see fit as long as you can live with the results and be prepared to take whatever is offered for that horn if you ever decide to sell it. Cutting on any musical instrument is a very risky business, even for the most skilled craftsman--there is no guarantee you will get the desired result. I am firm believer, however, in keeping BBb tubas in BBb---unless they are beyond any hope of restoration or they were crappy to begin with. No offense to anyone, just not a fan of risking a good functioning tuba because its not everything you want it to be.

JJ

Once the bugle parts are cut, there is probably no way to go back and restore it to original specs.

I've seen very few instruments that were merely cut from a longer bugle to a shorter bugle. My own attempt, which I have dubbed "Solder Practice", is an example. It does not make a compelling case for doing it, and I did it because I wanted to play. No actually decent tuba was sacrificed in the process. The result was goofy, but it's really no worse than what I started with, so I have declared it a success despite the goofiness.

Most so-called "cut" instruments are really conversions. Top-action, small-bore valves will be replaced with front-action, larger-bore valves. The instrument will be rearranged to point left rather than right. The instrument will be thoroughly overhauled. The junkyard-destined old 3-valve top-action Monster Bb Bass, which even in good condition might not be worth more than $1000 or $1500, will be morphed into a C orchestra grand bass potentially worth five figures. Given what has to be done to make it usable, removing two feet of tubing isn't really much harder than turning the carcass into a high-end Bb tuba. Lots of the old Monster basses started in high pitch anyway.

Converting a Holton BB-345 is a special case, and more the exception rather than the rule, in that it is a Bb tuba that is already in the desired configuration. If the Bb instrument is battered to the point where it 1.) can be bought for under two grand, and 2.) shows reasonable potential, then a conversion might be worthwhile. The costs are high. In addition to the donor, the overhaul will cost a coupla grand, the cut another coupla grand, the extra valve a grand, and the silver plate a coupla grand. That's about seven grand in addition to the carcass. On top of a $1000 carcass, the instrument would still have to sell at a price of $10K to return a 10% margin. That's a lot of risk for 10% (I've already included the tech's pay in the cost, but paying for hours is only part of what a business owner must do). But a BB-345 that is worth $3500-6000 is way too expensive a starting point to make a conversion to C feasible--it would end up costing as much as used C grand orchestral tubas of known quality, such as those by Walter Nirschl. Those usable/salable BB-345's are better off staying Bb instruments, and they fetch that price because there are those who prefer Bb tubas enough to pay that for them.

The only justification for making the conversion is that the owner wants to and has the money. It may be foolish in the minds of some observers, but only the guy who owns it has a say, assuming he can find someone to do the work. And those who know how are not exactly willing to spend the hours required to produce a dog even if they are paid for their services, so a guy might have to buy his own hacksaw, as I did.

Rick "who would include Matt Walters with Bob Rusk and Sam Gnagey as today's conversion masters" Denney

Ok, i'm probably going to be well criticized for this, but here goes. I'm thinking of cutting a Bb travel tuba to Eb. I know the risks, but the "itch" is there....
Go on, crucify me....

Dayv wrote:Ok, i'm probably going to be well criticized for this, but here goes. I'm thinking of cutting a Bb travel tuba to Eb. I know the risks, but the "itch" is there....
Go on, crucify me....

I would resist if I were you. We have tried cutting a CC travel tuba to Eb ourselves and it did not work - intonation was terrible, particularly in the high register. If you really want, that failed experiment is sitting in my garden shed!

Ever since the experimental cutting I have been trying to either buy, or borrow an original 19th century Eb tornister to measure, but have so far been unsuccessful.

The removal of a lot of conical tubing seems to largely contribute to the problems found when cutting a tuba, yes?

To go from BBb to CC you'd have to remove about 2 feet of open conical bugle.

To go from BBb to Eb you'd have to remove about 5 feet of open conical bugle.

Of course, these are compact travel tubas, so I'm not sure how conical that tubing is.

Wyvern wrote:

Dayv wrote:Ok, i'm probably going to be well criticized for this, but here goes. I'm thinking of cutting a Bb travel tuba to Eb. I know the risks, but the "itch" is there....
Go on, crucify me....

I would resist if I were you. We have tried cutting a CC travel tuba to Eb ourselves and it did not work - intonation was terrible, particularly in the high register. If you really want, that failed experiment is sitting in my garden shed!

I've seen a tournester baritone. Any consideration on offering one?

My idea was to blow into the 1st valve, removing the existing loop from the 1st, and joining the 4th through a tuning slide to the tube that this leaves. Maybe i'll be brave one day...

The basis of my thinking is that a 15mm bore Eb travel tuba sounds like a good idea. I'm starting to investigate euphs, but end up needing the pedal ranges. As i'm mainly a trumpet player, i find BBb tubas too big. EEb's i can manage.

And by the way, i'll take you up on the chopped-C garden shed version... PM me!