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Cimarron Music will have my edition of Felix Desire Ligner's 50 Studies for the Triple Tongue at the Army Band's tuba conference.

I'll leave you to read the introduction, but I'd like to say that Ligner accomplished what Arban failed. He approaches articulation as though he was a linguist or a speech therapist

Further, he provides a fully step-by-step approach to articulation that Arban lacks.

There are versions for all brass iinstruments.

BTW, my saxophone colleague loves Ligner's technical expl

I'm writing on a Droid. My post was interrupted by a visitor.

My last sentence was meant to express was the fact that my saxophone colleague really finds it useful as well

Amilcare wrote:Cimarron Music will have my edition of Felix Desire Ligner's 50 Studies for the Triple Tongue at the Army Band's tuba conference.

I'll leave you to read the introduction, but I'd like to say that Ligner accomplished what Arban failed. He approaches articulation as though he was a linguist or a speech therapist

Further, he provides a fully step-by-step approach to articulation that Arban lacks.

I struggle with multiple-tonguing, so I'm interested in knowing more about Ligner's approach, but not enough to make the trip to TUSABTEC to read the introduction in order to decide whether to buy the book, and not enough to buy the book, sight unseen.

Would you consider posting an excerpt from the introduction, and possibly an excerpt from one of the exercises, that illustrates his approach?

Bryan Doughty is on the list. He can answer you.However, let's say that there is no (and never was) "K." After consulting with colleagues with speech therapy bavckgrounds, the sound made when multiple tonguing is found in no language in the world. There is no linguistic symbol to describe the tongue's actual position when multiple tonguing.

Remember,Arban and Ligner spoke French. French has a "hard" C. Neither used it. I doubt the book will cost that much.I promise that it will change a great deal of your playing for the better to articulate correctly.

Sorry to be so mysterious, but Ligner was a soloist with the band of the Garde de Paris. He did receive a state honor as a teacher,but the records have been lost.

I'll be there! I'd like to pick this up.

-John

Sounds interesting, I'm assuming it will also make it up to Bryan's website for sale? I'd definitely be interested in reading an excerpt from the book, and would love to learn a new approach to multiple tonguing as it's always been a struggle for me.

This is an interesting topic to me. I've talked about multiple tonguing with my wife, who is a speech pathologist. In brass playing the "D-G" approach is often used to try to smooth out articulation instead of using the traditional "T-K". The problem is, in English speech, both D and G are voiced consonants, meaning the vocal cords are engaged for those sounds before the tongue creates the plosive (releases). The T and K are unvoiced - no vocal cord/larynx action on those prior to the tongue release. Sorry if I misuse any technical speech terms, she's not here to correct me

I have no actual science to back this up, but it seems to me that by thinking D and G instead of T and K we may be unconsciously engaging the larynx, creating throat tension that is a problem in itself and that may lead to other issues (Valsalva maneuver, etc). I know many folks have found success with both ways, but it's something to think about.

Interesting. Probably Brian won't post anything that would interfere with sales of the book....

I picked up triple tonguing without any effort; just happened (TKT, not TTK.) Wish that had happened with high range....

But: my single tongue (the "T" part) does not have any relation to any spoken consonant in any language I've studied (Spanish, German, Arabic.) It is unique to brass playing (my oboe "T" is quite different due to the reed's needing to have its air supply closed off.) Actually, I don't think my "K" has any parallel in the languages I can pronounce, either. Interesting.

Double tonguing has always been somewhat more difficult, but only if it has to be repeated ad infinitum. Short passages, no problem. I'd be very curious (but not to the point of spending money at my level of dystonia, sorry Brian) to see what it's all about.

I think multiple tonguing has a genetic aspect to it, frankly. I STILL cannot flutter tongue despite having spent a whole lot of time trying to learn it. Doesn't want to go, and I wonder if it also has a genetic component, or if I just haven't gotten anyone to explain it to me in terms that tell me exactly what has to happen. I use the uvula "rolled" R when pronouncing Spanish or Italian. I'm good enough at it that people don't seem to notice that it's not quite right. But you have to keep spit back there to get it to work....yuck, but I do it

MA

MaryAnn wrote:I STILL cannot flutter tongue despite having spent a whole lot of time trying to learn it. Doesn't want to go, and I wonder if it also has a genetic component, or if I just haven't gotten anyone to explain it to me in terms that tell me exactly what has to happen. I use the uvula "rolled" R when pronouncing Spanish or Italian. I'm good enough at it that people don't seem to notice that it's not quite right. But you have to keep spit back there to get it to work....yuck, but I do it

It has to be the trickiest consonant to learn, in European languages anyway. Maybe you just have to be willing to sound like an idiot for a while, until it settles in.

That uvular R is common in Portuguese, I believe even in Portugal, so that would be an place where you could come out of the closet with it. Some speakers of Brazilian Portuguese use the glottis , in a smooth way that's like trying to pronounce our "R" with the stuff you use to say "H" (I think that's what they're doing, anyway.) Neat sound, no spit involved.

I will probably have this up on the site in the next couple of weeks, but here is the text from the first couple of pages: There will be three versions when complete:

Euphonium, Tuba and Bb Treble

Wishing all a happy new year!!

BVD Press wrote:I will probably have this up on the site in the next couple of weeks, but here is the text from the first couple of pages:

Except that this was written for trumpet. If "tu" is interpreted as "too" (rhymes with new) then the throat and mouth are constricted. This is adequate for the high airspeed low flowrate playing of a lead trumpet, but not low brass. This is the opposite of the "hot potato" "toe" or "tah" syllables advocated by some leading brass players that opens the throat and oral cavity. If tuba players played the tuba using the exact same mechanics as trumpet players, we would all sound like Banda sousaphone players.

MartyNeilan wrote:

BVD Press wrote:I will probably have this up on the site in the next couple of weeks, but here is the text from the first couple of pages:

Except that this was written for trumpet. If "tu" is interpreted as "too" (rhymes with new) then the throat and mouth are constricted. This is adequate for the high airspeed low flowrate playing of a lead trumpet, but not low brass. This is the opposite of the "hot potato" "toe" or "tah" syllables advocated by some leading brass players that opens the throat and oral cavity. If tuba players played the tuba using the exact same mechanics as trumpet players, we would all sound like Banda sousaphone players.

Don't we all play the Arban which was also written for Trumpet players?

I hardly play anymore, but I always used "Tu-Ku" or "Ta-Ka" for any hard or fast articulations and "toe" for longer notes. "Toe" or "Tah" never seemed to project for me nor could I get it as fast as the shorter sounds. As I am sitting here trying "Tu" vs." Toe" I am finding "Toe" to be too open which slows downs my double tonguing. Maybe practice would help me....

I am sure there are a billion philosophies, but it will depend upon the player and then whatever instrument they have on hand. Maybe even the range where one is articulating would come into play. A "C tuba" vs. an "F tuba" might need different articulation sounds as well.

I am fairly sure no one will ever come with a difinitive anything in music...

Thanks, Brian. That's helpful.

From the brief excerpt, I'm at somewhat of a loss to see how the tongue position and articulation differs from those taught by proponents of the Tongue-Controlled Embouchure (which, for me, at least, has proved to be a dry hole).

I'm also not persuaded that "there is no (and never was) 'K.' " While it is true that the orthograph "K" is not native to French, the velar phoneme /k/ most certainly does exist in French, so--at least on first reading--the assertion appears to be a quibble over orthography, not over the vocalization of the articulatory syllable.

[A niggle that has nothing to do with the content of the book, but which, in the interest of historical accuracy, should be noted: while it may be true that Ligner's description of the tongue position anticipates the widespread application of articulatory phonetics to speech therapy, already in the 5th century BCE, Pāṇini had produced detailed treatise on the manner and place of articulation of Sanskrit consonants, the Aṣṭādhyāyī (which drew on the earlier Pratishakhyas of Vedic scholarship; the Chinese classic Yinyun (study of sounds), compiled during the Han dynasty (3rd century BCE), analyzes in detail not only the position of the tongue but the shape of the oral cavity in both consonantal and vocalic articulation; and the 8th century CE Persian grammarian Sibawayh distinguishes phonetics from phonology in his monumental work, Al-kitab fi al-nahw, so it's hardly the case that Ligner "anticipates ... linguistics ... by describing the actual position of the tongue in the mouth."]

Way beyond my pay grade on that one, but maybe Henry can chime in as I believe he is fluent in a few languages.

Since Bryan has posted the text I'll explain. The K is not pronounced as in normal speech. There is no linguistic equivalent. The K sound results only when making a humming or whispering sound while placing the tongue as Ligner describes. It's an anchor tongue. The range of motion is tiny. A few people fall into this without any instruction. The best part is that other aspects of playing often improve when this approach is used.

Also, 10% of any population cannot produce a rolled R. These same people will never be able to fluttertongue. Sorry;-)

For pgym;-)

You are missing the point. The use of K by French speakers was an attempt to describe a phonetic sound that was produced by the tongue position Ligner describes in detail. We do not have Arban to question as to why he or the flute players he copied used a K to describe the sound.

As important is the importance of the dental T of the French language.

This is why I am so disappointed by Wes Jacobs' Arban editions. Instead of using big name performers comments, he should have returned to Arban's original comments that have been lost. At best, his edition is based on a pirated edition produced after Arban's death.

I learned to multiple tongue using words/speech and then dropping the voiced part of it and air flowing it.

For double tonguing...dig a ditch, dig-a-dig-a-dig-a-dig-a-ditch, OR tiki torch(teekee), ti-ki-ti-ki-ti-ki-ti-ki-ti-ki torch

Triple-dedicate, dedica-dedica-dedicatory

By using these words I was able to form the basic syllables for tongue function for myself and multiple students, including younger "less advanced" players. I did say them in rhythm with a metronome and sped up gradually speaking them, then did the same wind patterning them (blowing air with just tonguing). The hard part is forgetting the speech/voiced part of this and just getting the tongue motion. I could not get my vocal chords to completely stop vibrating in the beginning. My students however did not have trouble. Let me know if this works for anyone else.

I am in no way saying not to get this book or any other product, as most have valuable exercises that help refine multiple tonguing even more. I was just trying to give some ideas for those struggling out there.

Amilcare wrote: Also, 10% of any population cannot produce a rolled R. These same people will never be able to fluttertongue. Sorry;-)

I believe that's a myth, though the exact percentage doesn't usually appear in the myth - did you just make that up? One popular variation is that it's related to the "tongue rolling" genetic trait, if you can't roll your tongue up into a tube then you can't perform this sound. You may have even heard this from a linguistics professor, but in the end I believe you will find that there is no credible source for it. There's no question that it's a relatively difficult sound, and some people don't manage it, but that doesn't prove they can't, and of course in its natural habitat it's successfully performed by far more than 90% of the population.

The source for this number is from voice colleagues. Also, I've had about the same percentage in my studio over 40 years.

I had a chance to discuss this with some Spanish trombonists, and they confirmed it as a serious speech defect in Spanish.

The book by Ed Tarr and Bruce Dickey is expensive but great as a resource. The rolled R is the preferred doodle tongue pairing.

Such an intellectual discussion on something so simple! Just do it!!!!