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Time for a very scientific (certainly already done before) Sousaphone poll. What is your preferred horn? Why? I hope to use the results in a future blog posting about picking the right Sousa for you and player preference.

Thanks!

KS

There was no choice for more than one brand, nor helicon so I couldn't vote either. I like my Conn 4 banger brass horn and I also like my Olds/Reynolds 3 valve fiberglass - they both meet specific needs.
My King plastic horn is finally restored and I will be evaluating the qualities of that horn this year. I still like Helicons but they have not been a big part of my performances in 2010...

bloke wrote:The Elkhart-style 14K/36K is no longer made, yet widely available. In your poll, I interpreted "Conn" as "only 20K", because that is the only Conn that is currently (not including re-branded King's) made. The old 14K/36K sousaphones (and long-gone similar-but-heavier 32K) had one fairly serious pitch issue (second-space C - 1st valve - FLAT), but other than that, It was (arguably) the best sousaphone of all time, imo (big, but not too). The 20K sound (to me) is a bit spread, and the bottom-of-staff F is very FLAT. I DO champion the Chinese copy of the 20K, but understand that is at at $2500 (w/case) price point, and not a $7000 (new Conn 20K) price point.

I voted for King, because (though a bit small) it's the best-in-tune and overall-best sousaphone currently in production. Street brass band players seem to hold some endearment to the King sousaphones...perhaps because they can be overblown and "rat" fairly easily...?? To me, this is a weakness of King, rather than a strength. The current version of the King fiberglass, though, is absolutely the toughest most indestructible of all fiberglass sousaphones.

Indeed I agree that some of the king sousaphones have good pitch, but my experience has been that they are not really consistent. I've actually owned 2 and one had a insanely high D in the middle of the staff, and sadly the C and B nat were flat flat flat. This one was bought in Alton MO at one of those weird cheesy "Antique" shops, it looked like someone had used it for a practice punching bag, it was soooo dented up, but the price was right $50 bucks. The second one just had a sharp F at the fourth line on the staff, it was easy to lip into tune, so yeah it was a good player, nice solid tone didn't Rat too easy, it was an older heavier one.

I owned a conn, possibly a 14 K , I'm not sure of that but it wasn't a large body instrument. The usual problem of the C an B natural being flatter than dog poo was a bit of a problem for me. Also this horn played dead dead dead, it was like blowin on a freakin car bumper or possibly a cracker box.

I voted for king, but notice a lot more votes for the Conn, what are the virtues of the Conn, other than the Dirty Dozen brass band usually seems to field a 20k?

My unscientific choice was Conn for two simple reason:

1) Parts are plentiful for the 14K/36K varieties and those parts work on most (I did say 'most') of the other Conn BBb sousas produced over the years.
2) I own (and play) a 48K (four-piston 'jumbo').

Gotta go with the King - its just more " in tune " than the other horns have I have tooted , and it is consistently, the most " tuba - like " in sound production. My late 60s- early 70s horn is almost indestructable , I use it " in the street " and although it can be overblown fairly easily , it serves as a reminder that 90 % is more than enough !!

I voted for Conn, because I saw no requisite that the instrument currently be in production.

To second Bloke's opinion, the Conn 14K/32K sousaphones, 4/4 helicon, don't know number/and 36K fiberglass sousa are some of the very best-playing tubas ever made. A properly set-up Conn 20K/38K are also really seriously good tubas. The 20K is somewhat fussy, as the short-action valves must be virtually perfectly aligned to really play right. But, if one goes to the trouble of getting them right, the payoff is huge.

Of the poll instruments, the Selmer/Bundy instruments are excellent when properly set up, as are the Olds/ Reynolds sousaphones, real King sousaphones, and Yamaha sousaphones. The Yamaha is for the most part a copy of the old Martin Mammoth sousa, and is exquisite when set-up right and played like a tuba.

For my personal use, I would prefer playing an American-made sousaphone, and probably an obsolete (out-of-production) one at that. My list would look something like this;
- Buescher
- Conn
- King
- Martin
- Olds
- Reynolds
- Selmer
- York

So far the poll results are skewing about how I would imagine they would.

The poll results also mirror the abundance of such used items.

Lee is right about valve alignment on Sousaphones, especially 20K. A good horn without a good valve alignment just isn't going to play as well as it would if it were properly adjusted.

I recently acquired a 1924 Martin 4-valve BBb sousa with a 22" bell. To my amazement, this instrument not only blows away any other sousas that I've owned (let's just say I've owned "a few") it outdoes many fine tubas as well! So there's my vote (anyone who knows me won't be too surprised!).

I've never really enjoyed playing sousaphone, perhaps because I don't enjoy marching for the most part. We used the King sousas in the army bands I was in, but I never cared for the valves. They were either sticky or sluggish and the sousas could never compare to the rotary BBb tubas we used (Miraphone 186/187) in valve action, response or tone quality.
I've always wanted to try a Martin Mammoth, perhaps they do play and sound more like a good tuba.
Of the sousa's I've played (never gone out of my way to play one), the Conns have been the best.

I understand Jonesbrass' feelings about sousaphones, particularly since he had to play Kings in the Military. During two of my assignment, I played King sousaphones, because that's what we had. Don't get me wrong, a properly set-up King is a thing of beauty that plays as well as a 2341 BBb. There is an issue with us that have larger ribcages, in that a King 2350 brands me with a bruise on my ribcage, and that can dampen anyone's enthusiasm. At one time I had a pre-WWII King sousa that was wrapped more like a Conn, and it was a treat to play.

There have been a lot of sousas that had poorly-aligned joints in the bell receiver region that render an otherwise good instrument awkward and barely usable. Fortunately, these problems can be repaired.

Also, school- and military-owned instruments are just not cared-for like they were someone's personal instrument, so many of us have never played a really nice sousaphone. I had a Martin at one time that played and sounded like a Mammoth concert horn, and was relatively lightweight, too. I've owned and detailed-out a Conn 20K that could move mountains, and had a Buescher Aristocrat (metal Bundy) sousaphone that was just a killer player. The Olds and Reynolds sousaphones, in 100% playing condition, offer plenty of good sound with really crisp and precise articulation, due to a smaller valve bore. And, they do not require as much air as one would use playing a large Conn, Buescher or Martin.

I have a 4 valve Bb Martin Monster with a 30" bell. Great player, except that it gets heavier each passing year.

I voted Conn, but let me refine that: PRE-MACMILLIAN Conn or PRE-CYBORG King.

Lee Stofer wrote:I understand Jonesbrass' feelings about sousaphones, particularly since he had to play Kings in the Military. During two of my assignment, I played King sousaphones, because that's what we had. Don't get me wrong, a properly set-up King is a thing of beauty that plays as well as a 2341 BBb. There is an issue with us that have larger ribcages, in that a King 2350 brands me with a bruise on my ribcage, and that can dampen anyone's enthusiasm. At one time I had a pre-WWII King sousa that was wrapped more like a Conn, and it was a treat to play.

There have been a lot of sousas that had poorly-aligned joints in the bell receiver region that render an otherwise good instrument awkward and barely usable. Fortunately, these problems can be repaired.

Also, school- and military-owned instruments are just not cared-for like they were someone's personal instrument, so many of us have never played a really nice sousaphone. I had a Martin at one time that played and sounded like a Mammoth concert horn, and was relatively lightweight, too. I've owned and detailed-out a Conn 20K that could move mountains, and had a Buescher Aristocrat (metal Bundy) sousaphone that was just a killer player. The Olds and Reynolds sousaphones, in 100% playing condition, offer plenty of good sound with really crisp and precise articulation, due to a smaller valve bore. And, they do not require as much air as one would use playing a large Conn, Buescher or Martin.

Thanks, Lee. The sousa's I've played have either been school owned or military owned, perhaps that's why I never enjoyed playing sousa. They always seemed like a lot of work to play, and never could approach the sound or response of a decent tuba. If I could find just one that played well and sounded nice, I'd change my tune.

Lee Stofer wrote:Also, school- and military-owned instruments are just not cared-for like they were someone's personal instrument, so many of us have never played a really nice sousaphone.

I am very lucky. My high school band director was Navy Band. So even for a school horn, and even old when I got it, a first generation King fiberglass that I was playing in the late '70's, he issued one horn to one student for the duration of high school (no "upgrading" with seniority), taught us how to maintain it, and except for the yearly visit to the tech or for truly accidental damage, expected us to take care of it as if it were our own, and (rare these days) had the backing of the school administration in doing so, making the student responsible for the horn. So even for a comparatively heavy 1st generation fiberglass horn, it played great. By the time I got done with it, it was whiter than some of the other newer horns, and played better, with refurbished corks and felts out of my own pocket, etc.

I live in a conservative area of the country, and under this director my high school had almost 30 years of consecutive "I" ratings at state contest, until he retired, and with school budgets tight, of course the administration backed him with imposing personal responsibility on the students. But then again, I was also lucky in that (and even more rare) the parents of my home town were as a community also conservative, respectful, church going, and also imposed as parents proper upbringing on the students about taking care of any property, be it band instruments, football uniforms, etc., or whatever, that were checked out to the students.

KiltieTuba wrote:I played Harvey's Martin - great instrument. A smaller bell really helps the sousaphone sound more like a tuba and less like a blatt machine. Or rather I should say, a proportional bell helps to make this tone.

They don't have to sound blatty. It just takes a greater degree of control when the bell flare gets bigger in diameter.

I think that another factor is rate of taper and how fast the bell opens up. I think Kings are very tight players and the reason for that just might be because they have a .687" bore that expands to a 6.5" bell collar and a 26" bell. This provides some good resistance and makes for a nice blowing instrument. On the other hand the Conn 20K has a .734" bore a 7.25" bell collar and a 26" bell. I think the combination of these factors produce a darker, more "chocolaty" tone that, at times, can be more difficult to control than a King. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I second the idea about 24" bells. 2" of material can be a good amount of weight. There are still plenty of good pre-1950 Conn Sousas out there. You just have to be looking for them.

I had so many good memories from playing those silver King BBb souzys back in high school and my first year of college. - good sound, pitch, everything. I just remember my souzy section putting out a lot of good deep sound with lots of core. Also remember being pleasantly surprised at the good sounds I heard emitted from the metal and fiberglass Yamaha sousaphones.
The (real) Conn sousaphones actually have a more open and broader sound to the more muted/covered and compact sound of the Kings, which gives the Kings that 'sweeter' sound. I agree that the wrap of the Kings can be problematic if you have a larger ribcage or if you are fat. I like the smaller Conn or Conn-made sousaphones - 14K, Continental Colonial, Pan American. But the bigger Conn souzys just sound too tubby/woofy every time I have heard one played, imo. The Conn tubas are a different story though.
Heard the Jupiter sousaphones 12+ years ago and.....uhhhhh....I hope they have improved them since.
Would love to try and hear the other souzys listed...

tooba wrote: The (real) Conn sousaphones actually have a more open and broader sound to the more muted/covered and compact sound of the Kings, which gives the Kings that 'sweeter' sound.

As opposed to what?

I played Yamaha sousaphones while I was in high school. I played a new Yamaha sousa my first year at UK. I played a
Yamaha sousa this year at Murray State. I can rightfully say that Yamaha sousaphones are not high quality and, in my opinion, overpriced. Now I know it's hard to get a college sousa line in tune, but even in high school it was a chore. And there were only two of us...and we were both quality players. I did get the chance to play on a few Conns and they were the most free blowing of all of the sousas that I have played.

One vote for Keefer!

KiltieTuba wrote:

CMRO225 wrote:I played Yamaha sousaphones while I was in high school. I played a new Yamaha sousa my first year at UK. I played a
Yamaha sousa this year at Murray State. I can rightfully say that Yamaha sousaphones are not high quality and, in my opinion, overpriced. Now I know it's hard to get a college sousa line in tune, but even in high school it was a chore. And there were only two of us...and we were both quality players. I did get the chance to play on a few Conns and they were the most free blowing of all of the sousas that I have played.

I noticed this as well. Things seem to break easier on them. The neck screws broke often from over-tightening, the valve guides broke off at strange angles and one became lodged inside of the casing; another letting the valve spin freely, fit and finish were a big issue - told it should polish out (although not with the stuff they supplied or approved), same thin metal and easy denting and bending.

Yamaha has since corrected their valve guide problem by making a newer style guide with a metal insert. Jupiter has copied this. I think that the Yamaha metal is fine, it just needs reinforcement in one place: the back side of the spout where the bell connects. I don't honestly think that the Sousaphones dent any easier than any other Sousa made today.