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I have just been reading James Goulay's paper on the cimbasso
http://www.tubaforum.it/Lists/Articoli/ ... _paper.pdf

In that he states;

This desire to match the sound of the low brass led to the conception of an instrument that supplanted the tuba in Italian Orchestras until the 1920’s; the trombone-basso Verdi.

Respighi Fountains of Rome was written in 1916, so it has got me wondering if it was intended to be played by tuba, or cimbasso. If Mr.Gourlay is correct, then only cimbasso were played in Italian orchestras at that time. The part is simply headed "Basso Tuba"

A contrabass tuba can obviously provide a better foundation and works very well. However, has anyone played Fountains on cimbasso?

I believe Uncle Beer wrote on here that he has. I have read of people playing Pines on bass and contrabass trombones. I'd probably play both on my 2 valved cimbasso.

Respighi’s indication of instrument is pretty exact in the regard of species.

James Gourlay says Italian orchestras, but refers to opera orchestras. There was communication between Verdi and opera managements on the matter of the low brass section, which the opera managements wanted standardized like the rest of the orchestra, so that operas had the adequately manned orchestras with no missing and no superfluous instrumentalists.

I never heard of similar discussions for symphony orchestras, which must have been able to perform Bruckner and Mahler by 1916. Anyway contrabass tubists could have been found in military bands.

There is no reason to think along a French tenor sized tuba. I don’t know about the Italian terms for bass tuba and contrabass tuba respectively, but the part would be tough on F or Eb tubas, so a contrabass is what the music tells.

Klaus

Bob Kolada wrote:I believe Uncle Beer wrote on here that he has.

Nope. I've done Pines on cimbasso (works great!), but not Fountains.

UncleBeer wrote:

Bob Kolada wrote:I believe Uncle Beer wrote on here that he has.

Nope. I've done Pines on cimbasso (works great!), but not Fountains.

Wuss!

imperialbari wrote:I never heard of similar discussions for symphony orchestras, which must have been able to perform Bruckner and Mahler by 1916. Anyway contrabass tubists could have been found in military bands.

There is no reason to think along a French tenor sized tuba. I don’t know about the Italian terms for bass tuba and contrabass tuba respectively, but the part would be tough on F or Eb tubas, so a contrabass is what the music tells.

I don't know what was the case, but I am reliably informed that some British orchestral tubists used F tuba for everything - even Prokofiev. Stuart Roebuck of the Halle played nothing but F tuba right up until he retired (in the 1980's?).

There is no reason to think other than in France the small C tuba was used for everything. So my question really related to if cimbasso was used for everything in Italy until the 1920's (or was it just used in opera orchestras)? If the original cimbasso was BBb 4-valve as mention by James Gourlay then Fountains would be more playable then than on a modern F cimbasso.

The idea of playing on the correct tuba for the music seems a fairly modern idea. In the past the tubist just did their best on whatever sort of tuba was used in that country. For example I have heard of Bydlo being played on BBb contrabass tuba in Russia.

Towards the latter part of his career , Roebuck acquired a Marzan CC which I understood he had converted to a BB. That's how I heard it ! I know he had an old 3 valve Besson BB he played sometimes but it didn't get all the way down to the bottom e flat and beyond which he would have liked. Someone in Manchester ( England) will have more info.

Wouldn't fancy Fountains on a Bass Tuba--Contra surely?

bilmac wrote: Roebuck acquired a Marzan CC which I understood he had converted to a BB.

This raises a serious question for me. Am I the only one?

TubaRay wrote:

bilmac wrote: Roebuck acquired a Marzan CC which I understood he had converted to a BB.

This raises a serious question for me. Am I the only one?

You mean, wouldn’t Roebuck rather play a Sears?

K

While there is some contradiction between the score and the part for Respighi's "Pines", there is no suck cloudiness regarding Fountains. Pines is a cylindrical part, but you have to go score/history diving to find it. Fountains is a bass tuba part, as the contrabass tuba was little known at the time in Italian art music.

As early as 1892 there were Italian orchestration commissions recommending the use of the bass tuba... and order ignored by Verdi and some others, and adhered to by some like Mascagni and Leoncavallo. Verdi was very influential, but not the only voice in the world of Italian orchestration.

Pines very deliberately contrasts off-stage conical brass with on-stage cylindrical brass, a dichotomy unnecessary and unsought in Fountains.

J.c.S.

Thanks JcS for that - very interesting!

In that case who is for playing Fountains on Bass Tuba (F, or Eb)?

It's sure a he|| of a lot easier on a 3+1 Eb!

Assuming equal quality horns, between F and Eb I would choose the Eb so that the sound stays the same throughout the piece (no pedal notes). I'm not even implying that F tubas lose it in the pedal range, I'm referring to the sound between a pedal note and the ones right above it. If I had to play it on an F tuba, it would absolutely be the Miraphone 1281. That thing out-Eb's a lot of Eb tubas and has one of the finest low ranges I've ever experienced.
Ba Bahh, Ba Braap, Ba Bahh Ba Barap,...
or-
Ba Bahh, Ba Bahh, Ba Bahh, Ba Bahh,...

That said the newest F tubas I've tried, the 1281 and the Kanstul, sound -especially- full in the pedal range and it is kinda nice sitting on a big fat pedal note instead of 30 feet of tubing.
I might just make a comparison of it tomorrow on youtube, though since my F is a trombone and my Eb only has 3 valves it might not really express the above.

FWIW, I ran through it once on BASS trombone once with one tenor trombone. That rocks but you really have to bring the beef.

Bob, the lowest Cimbasso note I've seen (or heard of) written is a low Gb. A 5-valve F tuba or cimbasso won't have to go pedal for that note.

My first cimbasso was a 3-valve CC (it had crooks for BBb and a two-step third valve for low F, E and Eb for other business)... it worked fine for all the literature.

J.c.S.

J.c. Sherman wrote:Bob, the lowest Cimbasso note I've seen (or heard of) written is a low Gb. A 5-valve F tuba or cimbasso won't have to go pedal for that note.

My first cimbasso was a 3-valve CC (it had crooks for BBb and a two-step third valve for low F, E and Eb for other business)... it worked fine for all the literature.

J.c.S.

Dude, were you reading another thread or something?

Neptune wrote:In that case who is for playing Fountains on Bass Tuba (F, or Eb)?

Low E (a prevalent note in fountains is pretty much always going to be a pedal note on a F instrument unless you have a quint valve hence my preference, between an F and Eb, of an Eb for that for consistent sound quality.

Sigh... I got lost.