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Reading Neptune's post entitled " Playing without music" made my mind vere off to another subject I have long had issues with and should have probably asked about here a long time ago. Rather than destroy the nature his topic by posting on his thread I am putting it here.
My topic has to with remembering music in genereal. I have found I have memory problems when it comes to music. I am a 48 year old amature who plays euphonium in a concert (community) band and a mix of tuba and euphonium for a church orchestra, mostly for Christmas. Even though with both groups there are plenty of rehersals and I attend almost all of them I have many times pull out a piece of music only to find myself almost sight reading it even though I have played it many times already. I have had this happen during performances. Any very difficult sections of music that have a lot notes and accidentals I can only play if I memorize them. Ususally, when I have worked them up and memorized them I don't forget them.

In general I have good memory.When it come to other areas of my life (work,family,etc...) I would say I am about average in the memory dept. I rarely forget very important things. I make my own schedule for work but never write it down and when asked what my schedule is I can easily recite it with most of the needed details.

Why do I have this mental block when it comes to music? I can play from memory the 3 following songs : "Somewhere over the Rainbow","The National Anthem" and the euphonium solo from the first movement of the Holt"s " First Suite in Eb" . I have no idea whay those have stuck with me. The Holst solo I learned in high school ...... 30 years ago. Go figure.

I don't actually know the answer to your question, but I can tell you that "old" doesn't make it better. That's for sure.

Maybe it'd help to listen to recordings of the pieces too? For me, it *really* helps to learn the piece, not just my part of the piece. That is, tuba parts don't really mean a lot to me if I don't understand how it fits with the rest of the piece.

Plus, it always helps to have an idea of "what it's supposed to sound like" fresh in your mind. In a way, it kind of feels like cheating. But given the technology available for free (YouTube alone!), it's a quick and easy way to study a piece and be prepared.

Next step for me (which is more difficult) would be to study scores. But certainly, there's far less easy access to that.

Of course, the above only helps you if you have trouble remembering the music altogether, not just the fingerings/how to play it. Just realized I may have misread your question.

I've noticed exactly the same thing. Get to the concert, what is this stuff on the page and why haven't I seen it before?

I decided that my mindset is different in a concert than in a rehearsal; often it isn't very much different, but it is different. And....I think research as shown that when taking a test (i.e., playing a concert) that the mental conditions need to be pretty much the same as when studying for the test (i.e., practicing the music) as they are when taking the test, in order for the information to come out of memory as well as you'd like it to.

So, if you have had to memorize a difficult passage, you had to pay attention in a different way than you had to when just playing stuff you didn't have to really woodshed on. Probably that attention is more similar to the attention you have when playing a concert.

That explained it for me, and what I decided to do was a) not sweat the really easy stuff and just deal with the surprise when I came across it, and b) reallly, really woodshed anything that was not drop-dead simple, as that was the stuff that would trip me up in a concert situation.

It did start to manifest as I got older, and I never noticed it until I was about your age, if that helps any

MA

With my blood clots, I'm having just the opposite problem. I can play anything on a page in front of me, but I can hardly remember what someone told me an hour ago. Decades ago, I used to play bass in a garage band and be able to play 3-hour gigs from memory, soaked in beer, pulling off the riffs to where folks even commented we sounded better than the records. Now, due to the nature of nodes on neurons being now considered the basis of long term memory, a lot of that I can still remember if I'm given time to prep for a song or two. But I don't even try to memorize current concert band repertoire anymore, save the few measures here or there to facilitate page turnings, etc. As hard as I might, it just isn't sticking in the grey matter like it used to.

Interesting, how different people's memory does or does not respond to different things.

I have no trouble (yet) remembering anything I've heard or played, but I have trouble remembering song names, and people's names, even if I was just introduced to that person today.

My main difficulty has not been memorization or reading of any "legit" music. I have scared some jazz players when, on a gig, they call up a tune, ask me if I know it, and I reply, "I'm not sure". A piano player this last Spring, while we were on tour with the Russ Morgan Orchestra, said, "Whaddaya MEAN your'e not sure?!" I'll ask them what key it is in, and what style, and when they start, I recognize it and can play it. Or, the one time in 50 that I don't recognize the tune, I just listen to the progression and keep the bass line simple at first.

Even if our abilities will eventually decline, I think that any study would conclusively show that engaging in the mental processes of music-making will keep one's mind sharper for a number of years.

You do know the three primary signs of old age, don't you? The first is loss of memory. The second is . . . hmmm . . . uh . . . the second is . . . shoot, I forgot the other two.

normrowe wrote:You do know the three primary signs of old age, don't you? The first is loss of memory. The second is . . . hmmm . . . uh . . . the second is . . . shoot, I forgot the other two.

1. Playing the euphonium.
2. Playing the oboe.
3 (the big one). Playing BOTH.

Bob Kolada wrote:

normrowe wrote:You do know the three primary signs of old age, don't you? The first is loss of memory. The second is . . . hmmm . . . uh . . . the second is . . . shoot, I forgot the other two.

1. Playing the euphonium.
2. Playing the oboe.
3 (the big one). Playing BOTH.

At least I don't play them both at the same time . . . yet.

Here is my take. When we were younger players, we didn't have nearly the distractions of "life" as we do in our mid - upper 40's or there about. I know that when I sit down to play, I can play the page but my mind is racing on everything else in my life. This didn't happen back when I was studying music. The focus was on the page - that was my primary "life." When I'm preparing for a concert, I learn my part, no problem. But I sometimes feel I'm on "auto pilot" when my mind is elsewhere. I get to the gig and often it does look foreign. Fortunately, I play the page just fine - no doubt due to stepping up the concentration level at that point.

As for memorization - I think the younger mind, again, is free of many distractions and overloads and is able to memorize easier. I didn't have to memorize much in school (mostly just for piano recitals and an occasional marching show if the weather allowed us to march) But in the last 15 yeas or so, I had to step up. Our quartet decided to optimize our performance and the top on the list was to memorize most of our full concerts. OH MY! I was the youngest in the group, still in my 30's. The oldest was mid 50's. It took us weeks (probably months) to memorize Gabrieli's Canzona No. 2. We struggled and struggled. Eventually we came up with a formula to make memorization easier. That and the commitment to do so, allowed our brains to build new pathways and it became easier and easier. I'd say within a year or so we had a full 90 min. concert memorized, plus odds and ends. I could write paragraphs about the benefits of memorization but that is steering off topic a bit.

Back to the concern at hand, I think much of our "blank page syndrome" is a result of not turning off our mind to allow for complete emersion into the music. My 2 cents.

Brassworks 4 wrote:Eventually we came up with a formula to make memorization easier.

Please share your developed formula!

I operate under the assumption that the mind can only hold a certain amount of information; after a while, when you try to put a new piece of information in, something else pops out the other side!

I think it"s a matter of concentration. I'm inclined to sight read all the time, even when practicing for the future. The chart goes through my eyes to my embouchure/fingers and directly to the horn. I can memorize, but I have to purposely work a few measures at a time. . . depending how the melody flows.
Similarly, if I'm driving someplace under someone elses directions, I'm inclined to pay no attention to the route. If I need to remember the route, I have to purposely concentrate on it.
I think that, if there's an age effect here, it's habit formation.

Neptune wrote:

Brassworks 4 wrote:Eventually we came up with a formula to make memorization easier.

Please share your developed formula!

Like I had mentioned earlier, the first thing that allowed us to memorize (and to get over the "I'm too old for this stuff") was to commit. We actually assigned homework after each rehearsal and set up goals as to when the entire piece would be memorized. We started simple by committing to the last four bars of the piece. Sounds easy. Well, for some of us "old brains" it took a surprising amount of time - at first. Eventually the first assignment of a new piece was 8 or 12 bars.

I think the key is starting at the end of a piece and working towards the beginning. We all know how hammered the beginning of pieces can get by stopping and starting over, repeatedly. Our concentration starts to fail by the end of a chart and the ending is often times less strong than the beginning. If you have the added pressure of keeping the piece strong and also memorized, your mind isn't quite on the music - its focusing on "can I remember it." By starting the memorization process at the back of the chart, those are the bars that are repeated over and over as you add more in front of them. Its important to not add more measures until you have it down. The end becomes second nature and your mind is much more relaxed because you get in a groove of "oh, geez, I KNOW this so well" (because you've played it a jillion times)

The first few pieces we memorized we found it to be a tedious process but it paid off. And it paid off very well. We found that group memorizing wasn't successful. We each committed to the homework, came back the next day and "competed," if you will. We found that memorizing our shows allowed us to listen FAR better than when we read. We could connect with the audience FAR better than hiding behind a stand and it was simply much more fun.

Neurologically speaking, the younger mind is like a sponge that can soak in the material and retain it. Whether it be a foreign language, or music, the younger mind is able to handle it - from an older person's perspective - effortlessly.

I've had experience of trying to learn ancient foreign languages in my 50s. It did not come easy. Greek took much time and concentration, Hebrew, I never did get a handle on. I had to learn not only a new alphabet totally alien from our Latin alphabet, but I had to read from right to left.

Currently with the music I am playing - my ability to play depends upon my skill level. There is not a practice where I am not sight reading a piece. For me, I work on my technique and work to improve my technical skill level so I can more easily handle the music that comes my way. The only way I can improve my skill level is to practice the piece over and over again until I get a handle on it. This is no different than when I studied Greek and had to practice and practice my verb declensions until I had them somewhat memorized.

In spite of the glibness of my previous post, I do believe learning as an adult is complicated by their "knowing" what they CAN'T do. If we can let go of our self-imposed restrictions, we can learn just as kids do.

Thanks Connie, that is very interesting! Do you consciously try to remember fingering patterns, intervals, or scales remembering a piece, or try to visualise the music score?

I have no trouble hearing the notes in my head and singing a piece I know. But not having perfect pitch, have trouble equating to a particular note to know what fingering to use.

Getting back to the original post in this thread, I make much use of pencil notes to remember points in a piece my band, or orchestra is rehearsing. For example if I miscount a rest, I will put reminder on music, to avoid getting wrong again. The act of marking also helps one to remember. Sometime the band may get out music a year or two later and then my pencil notes will immediately alert me to potential danger spots, even if I do not remember the piece well.

Neptune wrote:Thanks Connie, that is very interesting! Do you consciously try to remember fingering patterns, intervals, or scales remembering a piece, or try to visualise the music score?

I visualize the written music. Until the piece was so well memorized, I would actually shut my eyes and "see" the page in front of me. The other three guys in the group thought I was an alien... Our trombonist said he learned it by "feel" - probably meaning he could feel the slide patterns. Thinking about that further, it makes sense. Moving the slide is a much bigger motion than pushing valves and I can understand his explanation of his memorization technique. The two on cornet, I'm not sure what they used. I know the one guy was a big jazzer and no doubt he played a lot of what he memorized just by ear. Knowing him he probably just made his part fit inside of the rest of us, because he could. Not me. I'm about as square as they come and didn't have the ability to improvise. Of course he had to learn his written part for the majority of time but if he felt himself deviating, I'm sure he moved to improv. By the way, he was the oldest in the group and struggled the most with true memorization. But he always came through with something that worked! And the other cornetist, I really do not know how he explained his method. He often had the lead and carried the melody the most out of the others so maybe he had it the easiest?

I know I relied on shutting my eyes. Funny thing - since this thread, I decided to try playing a few things that we had memorized so well. I was amazed what was still in the head. We retired March 1, 2003. There is a lot that is gone - totally gone - in fact, I can't even "hum" them - but some are still there. I'm starting to wonder how my family endured all those late night "memorization homework assignments" Whew!

I made a lot of my living by using and developing my memory - not just for melodies, but chord changes and bass lines with "strong" notes.
One of my teachers, Jimmy Burke (long time cornetist of he Goldman Band) admitted to me he had 65 cornet solos memorized. He also had memorized the entire Arban book. THAT's practicing!
My method was to work up a solo (I started playing H.L. Clarke solos in front of bands on tuba as a kid) by memorizing a section at a time, and putting it together. Also I would play a tune, turn the music over and see how far I could get. Eventually you get farther and farther along. Of course I started with dixieland bands in high school.
You should be able to sing anything you're trying to play. You don't have to have a decent voice, but at least emit the tones. Do that for starters - sing your parts at home, then practice them.
The late Art Lehman who played euphonium in the US Marine Band for many years made it a habit of memorizing anything he played incorrectly in rehearsal the day before. This covered his butt working for Col. Albert Schoepper who was a notorious tyrant... Artie used to memorize his solos by copying them out by hand. Worked for him.
Pee Wee Erwin (Google his name on Youtube and enjoy) had a very acute ear, so much so that he could pick up just about any other trumpeter's jazz solos and play them back for years later. He figured that out as a kid and it helped him when he followed Bunny Berigan on Tommy Dorsey's band. He could also play the Charlier etudes from memory...
The point is, everybody does this a little differently. I suggest you try different techniques (like those I described here) - but WORK at it and be patient with yourself. Start off with your part to the National Anthem in B-flat.

Good luck!

Mark Heter