TubeNet

I understand a used, name brand like Miraphone/Besson/ect, if available in this price range, is the best option...but most of the ones I've been able to find and/or play are too large for me to handle (height or weight wise), or have pistons, which are not easy for my small hands to play quick enough for most of the music I play.

But can I get some comparisons or notes on the new, student model, horns offered today?

Specifically the:

JZ from Baltimore Brass (link is to a photo of the 4/4 size, but I am interested in the 3/4 size offered)
http://www.baltimorebrass.net/pic.php?id=718" target="_blank" target="_blank

TE-2110 from Tuba Exchange
http://www.tubaexchange.com/product-detail.asp?PID=V" target="_blank" target="_blank E TE2110

Dillion Music's model...
http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Pr ... -1695.aspx" target="_blank" target="_blank

Each of these horns is in my price range, and the size/style I'm comfortable playing.

Any thoughts, insights, ect are appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Megan

Dan Schultz also has a few under $2,000 tubas similar to these:

http://www.thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm" target="_blank

Thanks for the link bort. I've sent off an email to Dan.

If the 4/4 BBb JZ horn from Baltimore Brass plays anything like the Yamaha BBb it was copied from: it's built like a tank, has slow valves, isn't very efficient with the air, and isn't very resonant (plays kind of 'dead').

Don't have any info on the others...

The old Sonora/Zeiss/whatever stencil horns are a really good deal. I just bought a Sonora off the classifieds a little over a month ago, and it's an excellent horn. Might be a little tall for some people, but not overly huge and it has a nice sound.

This seems decent too:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42210&p=367633" target="_blank

jon112780 wrote:If the 4/4 BBb JZ horn from Baltimore Brass plays anything like the Yamaha BBb it was copied from: it's built like a tank, has slow valves, isn't very efficient with the air, and isn't very resonant (plays kind of 'dead').

Don't have any info on the others...

Thanks for your response! That's exactly the commentary I was looking for to learn more.

Tubajason wrote:Those are still pretty big horns, are you looking for just a Bb or are you flexable. What type of instrument are you playing now? Are you looking for a four or five valve instruments?

Tubajason,
Last instrument I played was a Schaffer 3/4 3 piston valve horn. I liked how easy it was for me to handle (I'm an adult the size of a high school freshman ), but was constantly frustrated with the lack of vocal range and the stiff pistons (my small hands had trouble snapping the pistons down fast enough) on that horn. I'd like a 4 rotary valved horn for the extra range and ease of playing. I'm a rank amateur, and havent played anything other then a BBb horn. The horns I've tried that weigh in the 16-22 lb range are all I can physically handle, and they have to be compact enough to wrap my arms around to play. Did you have a recommendation of another type/size of horn?

Levaix wrote:The old Sonora/Zeiss/whatever stencil horns are a really good deal. I just bought a Sonora off the classifieds a little over a month ago, and it's an excellent horn. Might be a little tall for some people, but not overly huge and it has a nice sound.

What is meant by a "stencil" horn?

Thanks again!

Exactly what he said, the stencil horns I'm talking about are actually from German or Czech makers (depending on the brand). This is the one I bought. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39679&p=360042&hilit=sonora#p360042" target="_blank It's tall, but not too wide. I'm enjoying it so far. (Other brand names include Karl Zeiss, Schneider, Weltklang, etc.) You can find these on eBay pretty frequently, it seems.

I would recommend AGAINST a 3/4 tuba, just because I think you'd probably be happier playing a full size. Worst case scenario you might need a tuba stand, and I know accomplished musicians that use a stand for their big 6/4 horns (and I think you'll probably be fine without). Also, if you find a piston horn you like, don't let that get in the way. Pistons can be just as fast as rotors if you take care of them (at least in my opinion, I'm sure someone will disagree).

Tuba Tinker has 3 horns that sound right up your alley, all for under 2000. http://thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm" target="_blank And I think that Sanders (for $1600) might be another brand of that stencil horn. Wouldn't hurt to ask him which is the lightest/easiest to hold.

I am fan, owner, and player of some of the Besson/Boosey & Hawkes 3+1 pistons compensating tubas. I definitely wouldn’t recommend the BBb versions for players with a vertical challenge as our moderator schlepporello puts it. They are tall and heavy and there is quite a reach for the 4th piston. Even with the Eb versions smaller players should test whether they can reach the 4th piston.

I don’t own a King 2341 BBb of the older version, but the one I had the change to test definitely was of my liking playwise. It is not a short tuba, but the 4 front action pistons allow for som flexibility if the angle it is held. The bore is only 0.689" which easily could turn into a benefit for a not so tall person. This model was widespread in the US, so it should be accessible on the 2nd hand market. The general approach about testing the instrument and inspecting it for wear and damage of course also goes with this model.

Klaus

Tubajason wrote: Thanks for the info it helps when making recommondations, what you are left with is really a 3/4 BBb tuba if you don't mind upright valves you do have some choices. First look at Taylor music they list a conn 14J, and amaiti, and a bach that are are within your price range. Next check out Dillons Music they list a 4 valve amait, and a mirphone 186, that might be too big, but it is rotary and just above 2K, the tube exchange has a yahama 104, and a 201 which could work. Baltimore brass has a besson within your price range. What you will end up running into is most BBb horns of this size will be upright piston valves and usually 3 valves.

The reason I asked about what key you played is because you would have more options for size and rotary valves if you were looking for a CC or F tuba. Also if the pistons are to hard or not fast enough that probably means that the springs are shot or they need a good cleaning. I hope this helps.

Thanks for your response!

First, I am pretty set on a 4/4 size horn. Of the tubas I have tried, I don't like the sound of a 3/4 in comparison to a 4/4. I am willing to put up with some size issues (with a stand to help if needed) to get the sound of a 4/4 horn. What I have found in my price range, it seems I will also have an easier time finding 4/4 horns. Is this a correct assumption?

Second, pistons vs rotary. The front valve action of the 4/4's I've tried is easier for me to hold and reach the mouthpiece at a better angle then upright pistons. The 4/4's were rotarys, and I found them much easier to play, for the size of my hands. They are extra small, and have carpel tunnel to boot, so pistons are agony after a while, especially after the Schaffer which sounds like it needed some attention.

Third, key of horn. How easy is it to switch to a different key for an "come back" player who strives to play in church and community bands? Would it be worthwhile to look at a different key horn for what I will need it for? Which key should I look for?

Levaix wrote: I would recommend AGAINST a 3/4 tuba, just because I think you'd probably be happier playing a full size. Worst case scenario you might need a tuba stand, and I know accomplished musicians that use a stand for their big 6/4 horns (and I think you'll probably be fine without). Also, if you find a piston horn you like, don't let that get in the way. Pistons can be just as fast as rotors if you take care of them (at least in my opinion, I'm sure someone will disagree).

Tuba Tinker has 3 horns that sound right up your alley, all for under 2000. http://thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank And I think that Sanders (for $1600) might be another brand of that stencil horn. Wouldn't hurt to ask him which is the lightest/easiest to hold.

Thanks for your advice regarding the stencil horns. I also agree about being happier playing a full size. After trying a 4/4 the sound was so much better, especially after the Schaffer.

I have emailed Dan regarding those three horns, and am drawn to the Cerverney. It is the same brand as the one I tried in the 4/4 rotary, and just loved the sound of it. It sounded deeper and more rich then the Yamaha, although I'm limited in what I can compare it to.

imperialbari wrote:I am fan, owner, and player of some of the Besson/Boosey & Hawkes 3+1 pistons compensating tubas. I definitely wouldn’t recommend the BBb versions for players with a vertical challenge as our moderator schlepporello puts it. They are tall and heavy and there is quite a reach for the 4th piston. Even with the Eb versions smaller players should test whether they can reach the 4th piston.

I don’t own a King 2341 BBb of the older version, but the one I had the change to test definitely was of my liking playwise. It is not a short tuba, but the 4 front action pistons allow for som flexibility if the angle it is held. The bore is only 0.689" which easily could turn into a benefit for a not so tall person. This model was widespread in the US, so it should be accessible on the 2nd hand market. The general approach about testing the instrument and inspecting it for wear and damage of course also goes with this model.

Klaus

Thanks for your insight Klaus. I found the same to be true of the front valve rotary vs the upright pistons I have had the opportunity to play. I was able to hold the horn at an angle where I could reach the mouthpiece without having to stretch to reach it.

As far as being able to inspect the instrument for wear and damage, I'm afraid I wouldn't know what I was looking at to be able to know if it was a good horn or not. Because of this, I am going to stick with known companies, who's repair shops you all here at Tubenet have recommended. This forum has been a wonderful education for me.

You might want to consider either the Mirafone 184 or the Harvey Phillips Conn model which I believe is now produced under the Holton name brand. One of the people on the list can give the correct model number of the Conn/Holton.
Both are smaller horns with valve front locations. You may be able to find one of them in you price range. For a while the Mirafone was made in a student model where they eliminated the nickel silver valve slides amd trim. Both are available in either bb of cc. I think you might be able to find a used horn in your price range.
Good luck and have fun finding a horn.
ScottM

horseandtubagirl wrote:I have emailed Dan regarding those three horns, and am drawn to the Cerverney. It is the same brand as the one I tried in the 4/4 rotary, and just loved the sound of it. It sounded deeper and more rich then the Yamaha, although I'm limited in what I can compare it to.

Very cool, I think you'll like one of those horns. if you get the chance to actually go there and compare them, even better. Wouldn't hurt to ask Dan's recommendation, either. Regardless of the brand, sometimes you get outliers (both good and bad). You'll have to post again when you get whatever you choose!

I am not a Miraphone fan myself, yet that brand has proven itself quite reliable over a whole lot of years, likely because that company could draw on an old Bohemian tradition, when it was founded in Bavaria after the political turmoil following WWII. The Miraphone (Mirafone is the same maker) tubas have a much bigger following in the US than the Holton model mentioned.

As for the student model having fewer nickel silver element, that may be less prestigious, but in my little black book the lack of nickel silver slide receivers counts as musical benefit, as the instrument becomes lighter, less stiff, and more responsive. Receivers and male branches all being brass takes a bit more attention about greasing the slides, as brass against brass has been told to corrode at bit easier than brass against nickel silver. If a 184 BBb with 4 valves could be found in good shape within the price frame that could be an excellent choice.

Klaus

jon112780 wrote:If the 4/4 BBb JZ horn from Baltimore Brass plays anything like the Yamaha BBb it was copied from: it's built like a tank, has slow valves, isn't very efficient with the air, and isn't very resonant (plays kind of 'dead').

Don't have any info on the others...

It seems to me to be very unfair to dismiss a horn without playing it. "If" is a big word here, especially when it comes to not playing something and then guessing how it plays. It seems to me that you don't have any information on any of the horns actually.

I have no experience with the JZ horn, but I've bought 2 horns from Dave Fedderly and he's a straight shooter, ask him how the horn plays, he'll tell you. He is so honest, I don't know how he can stay in business.
I played the Dillon horn while Matt was working on my tuba. I am very impressed at how it plays for the really low price that it goes for. I have recommended them to students and will continue to do so.
As for Dan's stuff in Indiana, he's got some great used horns at fair prices. I owned one of his Mirafone creations (mirafone body/chinese bell)for a while and it really played well. It wasn't the horn I needed at the time (too small) so I sold it, but it played great and really split the tuner as much as I've seen any tuba do so.
Good luck in your search.
ASG

I'd consider an American Heritage 4 Rotary Valve Tuba. I have owned one for several weeks now and am finding I am able to do things that I never could do with any of the other horns I have played.

A little about my background as a player. I started playing in 1975 on a big old Conn Recording Bass and have played on Miraphones, Meinl Westons, Kings, Olds & Sons, Reynolds and Yamahas in both BBb and CC through college and also as a military musician. I am now playing as part of a local community band and practice and perform at altitudes from 6,800’ to 8,400’ with an occasional brass choir gig over 10,100’.

I purchased this horn new from Jim Laab’s Music. It arrived via truck with no damage in about 7 days.



My first impression when I pulled the horn from its case, was that it is very heavy, feeling much like the Olds & Sons horns from the 1950’s and 60’s. Most of this weight is centered in the bottom of the horn making it comfortable and easy to balance in your lap. I don’t have a scale available to measure the exact weight.

The lead pipe is mounted up away from the bell allowing it to vibrate more freely.

The rotary valves are equipped with double ball linkages that are easy to lubricate and move smoothly and quietly.

The slides are nickel on both the interior and exterior of the tubes. On every other tuba I have played only one side was nickel or both were brass. All three valve tuning slides can be reached easily through the horn with the first valve slide closest to the front of the horn. The third valve slide located in the middle and the forth in the rear behind the upper large bend.

The wrap of the third and fourth tubes limited the flow of spit to the one water key located below the bottom of the valve block.

I’ve measured the bore of the second valve slide at about .690” with a manual micrometer but it plays more open than a Yamaha 321 with a bore of .731”

When I first starting playing this instrument, I used the large mouthpiece that came with the horn. I found it to be hard to tune or control playing extremely flat. I then switched to a Yamaha Roger Bobo symphonic replica and pitch improved. Once I switched to my Marcinkiewicz 3W the horn started playing very well.

In rehearsal this evening playing in a 67 to 69 degree rehearsal hall with the Marcinkiewicz 3W and verified by a tuner, I was able to tune with the slides pulled as follows;
Open -Tuning Bb – Tuning Slide pulled ¾”. Second valve – A – slide pulled ¼”.
First Valve – Ab - slide pulled 3/8” Third Valve – Low D – slide pulled 1”
Fourth Valve – Low C – slide pulled 1 1/4”.

I’ve read some reports that this horn has had a problem with the main tuning slide being too short. This may be from large horn players using the mouthpieces that work well with their five quarter or six quarter horns when they have tested or played this tuba. I believe this tuba being more of a four quarter size is being blown flat by the larger tuba’s mouthpiece.

Playing tonight in rehearsal I found the horn easily slid down into E natural, E Flat and D petal tones also I noticed I didn’t need to do the extra air push to get the notes to speak when transitioning from open position into notes using the third or fourth valves. There was no stuffiness in the lower notes that I experienced even when playing with the smaller mouthpiece. I am able to get the fundamental BBb to speak easily and am able to move down into the AA, the AAb, and the GG if I breath deep enough.

This horn is shorter than most. The position of the bell is almost directly over the players head. This makes your volume seem louder than what you are used to but gives a better feedback as to your true tone.

I've found it to be far better a horn than I expected and spent under 2K including shipping to get it new.

Hi Megan

From what you've been saying an older Miraphone 186 might be worth trying. They look tall but I think they would be quite light to pick up. I haven't played one but my section mate has a tall four valve rotary 4/4 BBb which looks very similar to a 186 and it is REALLY light to pick up. Compared to my 1291 it's like there is nothing in your hand. Almost every European and Chinese manufacturer makes a similar instrument. Most of the stencils mentioned here are this sort of instrument and are made by either B&S or Cerveny.

Have you had a good talk to Dillon's? They are known for evaluating people's needs and making good recommendations. There are several Chinese 186 clones that are new to the market that are said to play really well.

The older 186's have smaller bell than the newer models. Many people like the sound of the older version. They may be slightly lighter.

Rotary valve paddles can be altered to suit your hand shape where as pistons can't.

Using a tuba stand and having rotaries set up for your hands may open up the sort of tuba you can play quite a bit. If your trying to put the foundation on a large ensemble then you might find it both easier and more satisfying on a larger instrument.

When I try to make the same sound on 4/4 BBb as I make on my Miraphone 1291 (which is not that large a tuba) it's a lot more work on the smaller instrument and I don't get the same result.

I've never tried a tuba stand but I've heard a few people say that it changed their life.

I don't know the actual weight's of different tubas but Cerveny's are known for having thin metal which dents easily so presumably they are easier to pick up. Also a few people have commented that genuine Miraphones seem lighter than their Chinese clones. The real Miraphones seem to made of thinner, lighter metal.

If your after a big sound the Miraphone 191 is very compact to hold and has front action rotaries but if it's like my 1291 (piston version of the 191) then it will be very heavy. Once you've got the thing onto your lap it's not so bad. They're hard to move around in a hard case but have a much bigger sound in a large ensemble than a 4/4.

Sorry that's all a bit disjointed.

Regards

Gerard

If your after a big sound the Miraphone 191 is very compact to hold and has front action rotaries but if it's like my 1291 (piston version of the 191) then it will be very heavy. Once you've got the thing onto your lap it's not so bad. They're hard to move around in a hard case but have a much bigger sound in a large ensemble than a 4/4.

These indeed are quality horns, but you may have a number of years before you find any in good shape for sale in the neighborhood of $2K.

Your quest to find a tuba that sounds nice, you can handle and that plays well for you, and finding it under $2K, is very much like trying to find a horse to purchase that doesn't spook, responds well to your commands, and is sound for under $2K. It can be done, but you will have to turn over a lot of rocks before you find the tuba or horse that works for you.

Rev Rob wrote:Your quest to find a tuba that sounds nice, you can handle and that plays well for you, and finding it under $2K, is very much like trying to find a horse to purchase that doesn't spook, responds well to your commands, and is sound for under $2K. It can be done, but you will have to turn over a lot of rocks before you find the tuba or horse that works for you.

Or you can just rustle one of known quality.