The Chicken, or the Omelet?

[Z-Tuba Dude]

The various discussions about the appropriateness of a tuba, front and center, as a solo instrument, made me start to think.... (ouch!)

Is it the nature of the instrument, or the nature of the music written for the instrument, that defines our perception of the instrument's inherent musical potential?

Could it be that we think of a violin being a romantic, passionate instrument, because we have heard it play that kind of music?

Does the flute have the reputation of being a beautiful sounding instrument, because we are used to hearing it play beautiful sounding melodies?

Maybe our instruments' potential is determined by composers, not us!

[MartyNeilan]

Laws of physics.
Whatever instrument is on top will project out the melody - flute, oboe, 1st violins, etc.
1st euph is the melody in a tuba euph ensemble, otherwise lost in the middle.
Contrabass tuba would only be the top voice in a sub sub contrabass tuba ensemble.
And, how may people would want to listen to that???

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Laws of physics.
Whatever instrument is on top will project out the melody - flute, oboe, 1st violins, etc.
1st euph is the melody in a tuba euph ensemble, otherwise lost in the middle.
Contrabass tuba would only be the top voice in a sub sub contrabass tuba ensemble.
And, how may people would want to listen to that???

So far, the prevailing issue seems to be the altitude at which we play, causing concerns among the potential audience members. So be it.

1) I would say that one of the best concertos (pieces of music, for that matter) in the repertoire, is the Cello Concerto, by Antonin Dvorak (my opinion, of course, but I think few would say the piece actually STINKS!).

2) The issue of being heard as a "lower-middle" voice, was addressed very nicely by Mr. Dvorak. It is simply an orchestrational issue, of not using too many high sounding tones (which tend to cover the lower melody tones) while the soloist is playing.

3) When the contrabass tuba performs in it's "cash register" I would say that range is not a particularly soloistic region, but when the tuba plays in the tessitura that it shares with the cello, I think that the tuba's soloistic "stock" goes up a few notches.

4) a)The tuba is not a flute ; nor is the cello, a violin; The violin cannot do what a piano can do, and the reverse is true, as well.
......b)BUT...that does not mean that effective music can not be written for those instruments, taking advantage of each instruments' strengths, and down playing their respective weaknesses.

3) With regard to nuance: I think that not enough historical time has passed for the average "Joe* 6 Pack**" tuba player to get the chance to think in those terms, AND much of the literature still does not exist, that elicits those kinds of feelings from a tubist.

I know that we will never enjoy the same advantages/opportunities of the violin, or piano, but I think part of the reason is because Beethoven & Mozart will never write anything for us.


*= No reference to Bloke
**= No reference to that cool piece written for Tim Buzbee

[imperialbari]

The things said about the frequency level as a limitation for solo purposes are true.

There are bass players and there are bass players. And then there was Jaco Pastorius. I remember the first time I heard him in a news clip from some festival. I certainly went all ears.

Such concept musician could do a lot for the tuba. Actually we have a couple coming close. Dave Bargeron has done amazing things. Nat McIntosh’s beat-boxing on sousaphone wiped me of the chair also.

Klaus

[Levaix]

Anyone who doubts the tuba as a virtuosic instrument should start their re-education by listening to Mr. Baadsvik's Tuba Carnival.

I'm willing to put forward that the tuba's reputation has more to do with history than ability. Imagine if orchestral strings all played two octaves higher (God forbid) and the trumpet was the bass instrument. Due to it's conception as a "bass" instrument, listeners would associate it with "oompah," and composers would be scratching their heads at how they could possibly compose stirring music for such a boring background instrument. You also have to consider that the tuba was only invented relatively recently, with solo works being composed starting in the 20th century.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Anyone who doubts the tuba as a virtuosic instrument should start their re-education by listening to Mr. Baadsvik's Tuba Carnival.

Your point is a good one, but I don't think "virtuosity" is really the issue.

I think our problem is a lack of quality literature, on the level of the best piano, and violin concertos (in addition to the afore mentioned cello concerto), that would encourage us to attain the highest levels of expressivity.

Virtuosity has it's place, but it is the absence of heart in much of the music we have available to us, that is holding us back.

[Levaix]

Virtuosity has it's place, but it is the absence of heart in much of the music we have available to us, that is holding us back.

That's a very good point...

[tclements]

Then we should make sure that we are only playing quality literature, and playing it to the highest possible standard. In the past, there was so much crap written for our instrument, that even if we were given an opportunity to play a solo, or be featured in one way or another, the best for which we could hope was mediocrity. With all of the great literature written the past 15-20 years, and the teaching getting SO good that the newer generation of tubists play so well that this will change. But we do hold SOME responsibility for our fate. Great music, played well. With some of the milestone performances being highly publicized (Ms. Jantsch, Mr. Roylance, Mr. Olka for instance), we are seeing a true renaissance for our instrument.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Good points, all, Jason. Thank you.

I think you are right about Harvey, but I think he was ahead of the curve with this, a long time ago.
I really think he was pestering composers to write tuba solos, for most of his career!

[Wyvern]

I think our problem is a lack of quality literature

If you have not heard Eugene Anderson's Tuba Concerto, get a recording and have a listen ( http://www.andersons-originals.com ). There is a quality work with real audience appeal, as one reviewer on that site so aptly writes;

You would never think that you could have a tuba concerto stuck in your head for days, humming movement by movement.

If this concerto entered the concert repertoire, I feel it has the potential to be as appealing to general audiences as the Dvorak Cello Concerto with beautiful soaring melodies and dramatic orchestral writing.

Alas, we know it won't happen. Concert programmers are too set in their ways repeating the same works over and over again which they know fill seats. Tuba solos are not part of the mix.

The only way the tuba could possibly enter the mainstream of solo instruments would be if a real high profile conductor started actively promoting and programming. Now who could that be?

I think we do ourselves an injustice just writing the tuba off as a solo instrument - it has the potential, but currently not the means to reach wider audience.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

A popular bass voice how about Luthor Vandross.

How about Barry White, while we are at it?

[ginnboonmiller]

And Leonard Cohen, and Paul Robeson, and William Warfield, and the Magnetic Fields...

It's not the register, it's the freaking tuba culture. Individually, tuba players are tuba players, but collectively we have a SERIOUS taste issue. Tuba music sucks because tuba players play suck music. The guys that are playing to larger audiences and making frankly better music are guys that aren't super popular here. Marcus Rojas and Ron "snuffilupagus" Caswell and Joe "tubajoe" Exley and Damon Bryson. We're all sitting in our practice rooms sweating the seven notes we have to play with the symphony this semester or working the freaking John Williams Concerto, and when we get into our car to drive to the mall we don't listen to any of that, unless we're too far gone into the Tuba World. The instrument doesn't suck for solos, and composers don't suck for writing solos, but WE suck for playing crappy music and not doing anything about it.

[Biggs]

And Leonard Cohen, and Paul Robeson, and William Warfield, and the Magnetic Fields...

It's not the register, it's the freaking tuba culture. Individually, tuba players are tuba players, but collectively we have a SERIOUS taste issue. Tuba music sucks because tuba players play suck music. The guys that are playing to larger audiences and making frankly better music are guys that aren't super popular here. Marcus Rojas and Ron "snuffilupagus" Caswell and Joe "tubajoe" Exley and Damon Bryson. We're all sitting in our practice rooms sweating the seven notes we have to play with the symphony this semester or working the freaking John Williams Concerto, and when we get into our car to drive to the mall we don't listen to any of that, unless we're too far gone into the Tuba World. The instrument doesn't suck for solos, and composers don't suck for writing solos, but WE suck for playing crappy music and not doing anything about it.

Amen!

[Wyvern]

Marcus Rojas and Ron "snuffilupagus" Caswell and Joe "tubajoe" Exley and Damon Bryson. We're all sitting in our practice rooms sweating the seven notes we have to play with the symphony this semester or working the freaking John Williams Concerto

Any YouTube links to their music for us that don't know what they sound like (although I rather suspect not to my middle age taste)?

For the John Williams Concerto, I must admit a big disappointment on first hearing. As someone who loves Williams film music, I was hoping for something melodic and memorable alike in the concerto - but instead it sounded like a technical exercise.

Why do so many composers have to write tuba solos such, instead of giving us music of the sort most people want to listen?

[Biggs]

Marcus Rojas and Ron "snuffilupagus" Caswell and Joe "tubajoe" Exley and Damon Bryson. We're all sitting in our practice rooms sweating the seven notes we have to play with the symphony this semester or working the freaking John Williams Concerto

Any YouTube links to their music for us that don't know what they sound like (although I rather suspect not to my middle age taste)?

For the John Williams Concerto, I must admit a big disappointment on first hearing. As someone who loves Williams film music, I was hoping for something melodic and memorable alike in the concerto - but instead it sounded like a technical exercise.

Why do so many composers have to write tuba solos such, instead of giving us music of the sort most people want to listen?

Marcus Rojas (with Dave Douglas and Brass Ecstasy): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_EW2O_1qAc

Ron Caswell (with Slavic Soul Party): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThvUZoaDVcw

Joe Exley (TubaLove) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJbh6GyFqDE

Damon Bryson, otherwise known as Tuba Gooding, Jr. (of The Roots) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YJlU1o1ZGc

I'd also recommend another fine NYC-based tubist, Brian Wolff, formerly of Drums and Tuba and now performing solo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7TNKVm4 ... re=related

Middle age has nothing to do with it, Neptune! These are just very fine players (most with extensive classical training in their background) looking to use and market their talent in ways others than playing Western art music.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

And Leonard Cohen, and Paul Robeson, and William Warfield, and the Magnetic Fields...

It's not the register, it's the freaking tuba culture. Individually, tuba players are tuba players, but collectively we have a SERIOUS taste issue. Tuba music sucks because tuba players play suck music. The guys that are playing to larger audiences and making frankly better music are guys that aren't super popular here. Marcus Rojas and Ron "snuffilupagus" Caswell and Joe "tubajoe" Exley and Damon Bryson. We're all sitting in our practice rooms sweating the seven notes we have to play with the symphony this semester or working the freaking John Williams Concerto, and when we get into our car to drive to the mall we don't listen to any of that, unless we're too far gone into the Tuba World. The instrument doesn't suck for solos, and composers don't suck for writing solos, but WE suck for playing crappy music and not doing anything about it.

Those guys are great! Thank God they are there, making the tuba a more vital part of music making. They are "breaking the mould", which is an important part of what this is all about.

In the original post, I was thinking the European art music model of music making, but I was not explicit about that point.

Whatever music we play, must be emotionally honest!

[ginnboonmiller]

In the original post, I was thinking the European art music model of music making, but I was not explicit about that point.

[/quote]

Well, that's fine. My point still stands. If you don't like what's written, write something better. Stop playing garbage.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

......write something better.

I really wish I had the ability to write music on the level of Beethoven, Dvorak, or even poor Mozart!