Cold War Tubas

[bergland]

I have just purchased a B&S rotary stencil horn (Sonora). I've been testing the instrument and am impressed with its tonal quality, ease of playing, and general intonation. The horn is labeled "Sonora, Made in German Democratic Republic." As an academic, however, I always like to know as much about the history of the instruments I play as I do the technical specifications.

I've read through every post I could find on this forum regarding B&S and the GDR phenomenon. I'm humbled by the knowledge and scholarship displayed by so many members. I've been grateful to find so much information about the East German tuba phenomenon. But I still have a few questions:

1. I can find no serial number on this horn. Was this a usual practise?
2. Is there any precise way to date this horn?
3. Is there any actual written documentation concerning tuba production in East Germany during the Cold War years?
4. What do the initials B & S stand for?
5. Did B&S or any of its "stencil" subsidiaries produce catalogues at the time? If so, are any of these available?
6. What year did "Sonora" come into existence? Was it a company, storefront, or workshop? Does anyone know its business structure and constituency?

Thanks
Don

[sailn2ba]

This one should be fun.
I have an old Miraphone 185 that has no serial number.
I couldn't find the serial N on my Amati 681 until someone pointed out that it was on the valve paddle rack.
B & S is an established stencil for a whole line of well respected tubas. i really thought they are West German horns. (?Am I wrong?)
Other Qs I can't address, except for caveat emptor.

[bergland]

This one should be fun.
I have an old Miraphone 185 that has no serial number.
I couldn't find the serial N on my Amati 681 until someone pointed out that it was on the valve paddle rack.
B & S is an established stencil for a whole line of well respected tubas. i really thought they are West German horns. (?Am I wrong?)
Other Qs I can't address, except for caveat emptor.

I appreciate your response. I'll do a bit more hunting for the elusive serial number and see if I can find it lurking in some obsolete cavity somewhere. The only information I have about these horns is that which I was able to gather from folks on this forum. The reading I've done seems to suggest that this is an East German horn. As well, the stencil on the bell says "Made in German Democratic Republic."

I am always cautious when spending money on musical instruments. But so far, this horn is vastly outplaying an old vintage Conn 21J I own (which may not be saying much). But I remain enthralled with the Sonora's rich textural tone and ease of playing. At this point, I do believe it actually anticipates the note I am about to play and beats me to it.

Thanks
Don

[Dan Schultz]

You'll find that same horn with other names like Carl Wunderlich and Gerhard Schneider. Good horns. Klaus knows about the history of GDR instruments. I've had several of these horns.... all good horns.

[bergland]

B&S stands (basically) for (well, sort-of) a German version of "Brass (sheet metal) and Signal Works".

B&S serial numbers, generally, are on the mouthpiece receiver. Your receiver may have been replaced, or the instrument simply may not have a number.

Manufacturing processes in the old Communist plant were not very mechanized, and nearly all of the bows were hand-made. The old factory actually had a dirt floor. My B&S F tuba is among the last of the hand-made instruments. When dents are removed, hammer marks (which were sanded off the outside, but remain on the inside) "print through" to the outside.

Though not uncommon, I have found that many tubas like yours (a model heavily-copied by the Chinese, btw) play superbly well (and with - imo - a better-than-Miraphone 186 and similar-to-Alexander resonance) from the very bottom (lowest pitches on the piano) to the very top (Bb above middle C), with the only intonation flaw being the classic "flat 5th partial" (open D/Db in the staff).

I appreciate your insights! With the help of a flashlight, I found the serial number in the exact location you mentioned - 112310. Can this discovery provide any further information about the horn itself, i.e., date of manufacture, etc.?

What is the exact German phrase for "Brass & Signal Works?"

Your story about the manufacturing process in the old Communist plants was fascinating. I'm very receptive to any others you may have.

Your description of the horn's characteristics and intonation replicates my experience with this horn exactly. I'm trying to locate specific tuba music that avoids that 5th partial entirely.

Thanks
Don

[bergland]

Good advice. I alternate between 3 tubas, one of which plays that partial perfectly in tune. I'm at the age where the least amount of new memorization I have to do, the better.

Thanks
Don

[Wyvern]

Bergland, Congratulations on your nice old Sonora tuba!

I have not heard mention of what key it is in - BBb? Just curious!

I thought the 'B' in B & S means Blas as in blaskapelle meaning wind band - so the name means Windband and Signal Instruments. The Signal instruments being hunting horns, post horns, etc.

B&S was definitely an East German company before unification.

[bergland]

Bergland, Congratulations on your nice old Sonora tuba!

I have not heard mention of what key it is in - BBb? Just curious!

I thought the 'B' in B & S means Blas as in blaskapelle meaning wind band - so the name means Windband and Signal Instruments. The Signal instruments being hunting horns, post horns, etc.

B&S was definitely an East German company before unification.

Yes indeed! I didn't mention the key. It is a BBb.

I am pleased with the Sonora, but it would have easily avoided my grasp had it not been for the keenly analytical B&S insights provided by members of this forum. With its very precise Search Engine, this place is easily the world's foremost repository of tuba knowledge!

Thanks
Don

[Levaix]

I have one of these, nickel-plated... Also a Sonora. It has an enormous dent in the upper bow, several small dents in the leadpipe, a loose brace or two, and a partially flattened 4th valve tube. All that being said, it plays amazingly well, easily keeping pace with the two (new) 186's and a school Meinl-Weston in my section. Before this horn I was playing one of those Rudy 3/4 CC's that people seem to like; Personally I like the the stencil considerably more. Plus, these things are cheap to get a hold of... Honestly I think I would only ever sell it if I were going to get a bigger horn, it's a wonderful little beast.

Right, on topic... I got nothing. But I AM very interested in the history of these horns as well! That BBb Alex 163 in the classifieds looks nearly identical, and I haven't been the only one to see the resemblance.

[bergland]

I too am very interested in the historical events surrounding the range of horns produced by B&S during the Cold War years. Every time I pick up the Sonora to play it, the question marks that appear in my head begin to clash with the notes of the piece I'm playing.

I've run countless Internet searches and come up with very little. The greatest amount of information I've found is right here in this forum. Amongst the plethora of posts hosted here, there are many small but very interesting stories about tuba construction behind the Iron Curtain. This may indicate that there are probably some folks here who could share some very intriguing stories about this facet of tuba history.

Thanks
Don

[imperialbari]

If you went with TubeNet you might assume B&S being West German. Hurrah for the faithfulness of TubeNet!

VEB Blechblas- und Signalinstrumentenfabrik:

VEB = Volkseigener Betrieb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkseigener_Betrieb

Blechblasinstrumente = brasswind instruments

Signalinstrumente = signal instruments, which might be bugles, but the designation rather was for metal tongue instruments as they were applied in sirens for railways and for ambulances. A crossover from these to the music field were the Schalmeien.

Fabrik = factory

Their house brands were the top range B&S and the amateur/student line Weltklang. Hoyer was the name for high-end horns. Scherzer was the name for high-end trumpets. K. Wolfram was the name for high-end German style trumpets without triggers and vents, but with a long water key lever allowing for the usage as vent. Schneider and Schmidt were names put on instruments used to circumvent their own contracts with exclusive importers in various countries. The family names came from the independent pre-1945 master workshops forced to join the state conglomerate.

Aside from that they would put whatever name on their instruments according to importers’ wishes. Musical instruments was one of the few fields of excellence that would work as a generator of income in western currencies. Optics was another similar field.

One odd aspect:
viewtopic.php?p=332205#p332205

Sonora and other stencil names like Musica and König have one matter in common. They are so commonly used that they are free of any copyright claims.

My Yahoo based brass gallery holds 6500+ instrument and catalogue entries. Including B&S catalogue pages from 1985. The gallery is constantly expanded, and the catalogue is updated once or twice a month depending one the amount of incoming stuff and on my other workloads:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Yor ... les/Index/

Klaus

[alfredr]

Also, have you checked out horn-u-copia.net ?

B&S link, if it works, http://www.horn-u-copia.net/cgi-bin/yab ... l?board=BS" target="_blank

alfredr, thinking Democratic Peoples' Republic usually indicated a communist country

[Tortuba]

Congrats on the "new" Sonora!

I have a Sonora brand tuba as well. However, mine has a vertical main tuning slide as opposed to the horizontal one on your horn. The bell in 16.6 inches.

It is my understanding that the Sonora name was applied to tubas from different manufacturers.

Mine was build in the GDR in 1986 and is actually a PT1 tuba with a different "stencil" name.

Before I had the receiver replaced, the serial number could be found there.

I occasionally play with a fellow who has a "Bach" tuba that is identical to mine except that the leadpipe has a larger bore.

So, the "Sonora" tuba can take on many forms. Still a great horn no matter what it's called.

[bergland]

If you went with TubeNet you might assume B&S being West German. Hurrah for the faithfulness of TubeNet!

VEB Blechblas- und Signalinstrumentenfabrik:

VEB = Volkseigener Betrieb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkseigener_Betrieb

Blechblasinstrumente = brasswind instruments

Signalinstrumente = signal instruments, which might be bugles, but the designation rather was for metal tongue instruments as they were applied in sirens for railways and for ambulances. A crossover from these to the music field were the Schalmeien.

Fabrik = factory

Their house brands were the top range B&S and the amateur/student line Weltklang. Hoyer was the name for high-end horns. Scherzer was the name for high-end trumpets. K. Wolfram was the name for high-end German style trumpets without triggers and vents, but with a long water key lever allowing for the usage as vent. Schneider and Schmidt were names put on instruments used to circumvent their own contracts with exclusive importers in various countries. The family names came from the independent pre-1945 master workshops forced to join the state conglomerate.

Aside from that they would put whatever name on their instruments according to importers’ wishes. Musical instruments was one of the few fields of excellence that would work as a generator of income in western currencies. Optics was another similar field.

One odd aspect:
viewtopic.php?p=332205#p332205

Sonora and other stencil names like Musica and König have one matter in common. They are so commonly used that they are free of any copyright claims.

My Yahoo based brass gallery holds 6500+ instrument and catalogue entries. Including B&S catalogue pages from 1985. The gallery is constantly expanded, and the catalogue is updated once or twice a month depending one the amount of incoming stuff and on my other workloads:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... %20format/

Klaus

Klaus:

Great information! Thanks very much. I'm starting to get a sense of the context within which these horns were constructed, although it seems like there is a wealth of historical information that is not readily accessible except through folks like yourself who "own" the knowledge. Do you know of any written documentation about the instrument makers of this era, or has it become "oral tradition" at this point?

Was "Sonora" a brand used only for instruments that were to be exported, or were "Sonora" branded instruments also marketed within the GDR?

I've gone through the Forum fairly closely and extracted all the information I could find about this topic. I notice that you have been a primary contributor, so I've seen your other posts previously.

I wasn't aware of your Yahoo resource. I'll take a look through that today.

Thanks again
Don

[bergland]

Also, have you checked out horn-u-copia.net ?

B&S link, if it works, http://www.horn-u-copia.net/cgi-bin/yab ... l?board=BS" target="_blank" target="_blank

alfredr, thinking Democratic Peoples' Republic usually indicated a communist country

I've run across the "Horn-u-copia" resource in my travels. Thanks for reminding me of it. I'll review it again.

Thanks
Don

[bergland]

Congrats on the "new" Sonora!

I have a Sonora brand tuba as well. However, mine has a vertical main tuning slide as opposed to the horizontal one on your horn. The bell in 16.6 inches.

It is my understanding that the Sonora name was applied to tubas from different manufacturers.

Mine was build in the GDR in 1986 and is actually a PT1 tuba with a different "stencil" name.

Before I had the receiver replaced, the serial number could be found there.

I occasionally play with a fellow who has a "Bach" tuba that is identical to mine except that the leadpipe has a larger bore.

So, the "Sonora" tuba can take on many forms. Still a great horn no matter what it's called.

Very interesting. It seem the "Sonora" scenario is getting more and more complex. Can you post a picture of your horn? I would love to see it.

Thanks
Don

[imperialbari]

For me most of the European brass history comes from listening to people in the know. But the brass history can only be understood as a reflection of national and continental history. For reasons not to be repeated here I have experienced post-WWII history at very close range, so I know the historical framework.

Our late TN-friend, Kurt Klingspor, had contacts with a brass museum in Markneukirchen. Sadly it passed totally by me, that Kurt went from very active to terminally ill in a very short time, so I have not taken over that contact. My policy is to let everybody do what they are the best ones doing, so I had seen no reason to work within Kurt’s special field. In the same way Cornucopia and I exist very well together. Keller & Kenton have much better text references than I have. Because I have chosen the free server space of Yahoo, I then can upload photos in very high resolutions and in large numbers, whenever I can get by them.

As I have understood the main repairman (until his death in 1990) of the Danish B&S importer, GDR amateurs had no chance acquiring B&S instruments. These were mainly for export and for professional players.

GDR had 95 or so professional orchestras for a population of 15 or 16 millions. That was way over the average of any western country, but entertainment and holidays were the more gentle factors the GDR regime applied with the goal of keeping away uproars.

The GDR conservatories had a very strict grading system which determined which orchestras students were allowed auditioning for. Only the very best players were allowed getting foreign instruments. The cello players in one East Berlin top orchestra were given top notch foreign strings. Only not the brand they wanted. So a really odd traffic started, when these cellists found a Danish connection. He smuggled the unwanted strings to Copenhagen, where they were considered good value, and then he smuggled the desired brand of strings back to East Berlin.

In other words I don’t think the Sonora brand was for GDR players. They rather played B&S or Weltklang, which are very German terms in their styling.

Klaus

[Søren]

Just to state what many of us take for granted. The topline of instruments of B&S in the good old days were the "Symphonie" line. I have been fortunate enough to play a number of these, and I even own 2 specimens. The 3 different Symphonie F tubas I have played was all different. I guess that they changed the design slightly as the years went on. I have seen the same change on some of the normal B&S/Weltklang BBb and Eb tubas. The most obvious change for the BBb and Eb tubas are that the tuning slide went from horizontal to vertical at some point.

I here show a picture of my 3 B&S tubas (all extremely well playing horns). Left to right they are:
B&S Symphonie 4v BBb
B&S 4v CC
B&S Symphonie 5v F

[imperialbari]

Have the F variants ever had a horizontal tuning slide? I guess the horizontal slide was the place where they changed the pitch from F to Eb.

There are two main BBb variants: one with horizontal and one with vertical tuning slide. One of these variants is slightly smaller bellwise, but there I am not the one knowing most.

Klaus

[bergland]

Just to state what many of us take for granted. The topline of instruments of B&S in the good old days were the "Symphonie" line. I have been fortunate enough to play a number of these, and I even own 2 specimens. The 3 different Symphonie F tubas I have played was all different. I guess that they changed the design slightly as the years went on. I have seen the same change on some of the normal B&S/Weltklang BBb and Eb tubas. The most obvious change for the BBb and Eb tubas are that the tuning slide went from horizontal to vertical at some point.

I here show a picture of my 3 B&S tubas (all extremely well playing horns). Left to right they are:
B&S Symphonie 4v BBb
B&S 4v CC
B&S Symphonie 5v F

Nice looking horns! Thanks for sharing the images!

Thanks
Don