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Soliciting opinions ( and I know you guys have them ) , In terms of cost , quality and sound production , what would be a comparable piston valved tuba to a Miraphone 186 ? I'm starting to realize that I am cleaner and faster with pistons . I am aware of alternative Miraphones and the King 2341 , but what else should I plan on taking a look at ? Thanks Jim

Front pistons:
Jupiter 582?
Schiller American Heritage 4/4 BBb Piston Elite?
Nirschl J-700LQ?
Amati ABB621?

And since you did used to own a Besson:
Yamaha YBB321?
Weril J981?
Holton BB460?

If you're looking for a direct analog, there really is none. If you're looking for a 4/4 BBb tuba with 4 valves, @ .720 - .770 primary bore and @ 17 to 19 inch bell with a moderate sized bell throat, to support a concert band, there's seven of them. They all have their quirks and problems and personalities, just like all tubas do. None is really "better." It all about what characteristics and ideosyncracies you can live with.

Before you give up on your 186, have you had it gone through and cleaned up, or maybe something is slightly binding. Or have the paddles repositioned to fit your hand better? My 186 was a little slow, or so I thought, but recently it has seemed to "loosen up," and is faster than it was. I've done nothing to it except keeping the routine maintenance going. It's in a bag, not a hard case, so maybe something got bumped just right. Who knows?!

I don't think any of these above-listed tubas will have the tone you've come to enjoy out of your 186. A few years ago I got to try out everything, and I mean everything, when Jeff Rideout stopped for a few hours at the regional university on his way back to Michigan from the Texas show with the trailer. There's an old thread somewhere with pix. The hand-made Nirschl 4/4 CC was the only CC I really enjoyed, and the GR51/PT605 was tempting, if I were 20 years younger, or if I still had the breath support I had then. Bottom line: I went home with girl I brought to the dance, although I did buy a mouthpiece or two over the next few months. And even then, one of those mouthpieces went off with another instrument, and the the other I haven't used for awhile.

I'll vouch for the Schiller horn. I'm playing a new Schillbrunner (H-192 copy) that I really like. The quality is good and the brass/ nickle is thicker making the horns a little darker and far more durable than others. And the price is a whole lot better.

iiipopes wrote:Front pistons:
Jupiter 582?
Schiller American Heritage 4/4 BBb Piston Elite?
Nirschl J-700LQ?
Amati ABB621?

And since you did used to own a Besson:
Yamaha YBB321?
Weril J981?
Holton BB460?

If you're looking for a direct analog, there really is none. If you're looking for a 4/4 BBb tuba with 4 valves, @ .720 - .770 primary bore and @ 17 to 19 inch bell with a moderate sized bell throat, to support a concert band, there's seven of them. They all have their quirks and problems and personalities, just like all tubas do. None is really "better." It all about what characteristics and ideosyncracies you can live with.

Before you give up on your 186, have you had it gone through and cleaned up, or maybe something is slightly binding. Or have the paddles repositioned to fit your hand better? My 186 was a little slow, or so I thought, but recently it has seemed to "loosen up," and is faster than it was. I've done nothing to it except keeping the routine maintenance going. It's in a bag, not a hard case, so maybe something got bumped just right. Who knows?!

I don't think any of these above-listed tubas will have the tone you've come to enjoy out of your 186. A few years ago I got to try out everything, and I mean everything, when Jeff Rideout stopped for a few hours at the regional university on his way back to Michigan from the Texas show with the trailer. There's an old thread somewhere with pix. The hand-made Nirschl 4/4 CC was the only CC I really enjoyed, and the GR51/PT605 was tempting, if I were 20 years younger, or if I still had the breath support I had then. Bottom line: I went home with girl I brought to the dance, although I did buy a mouthpiece or two over the next few months. And even then, one of those mouthpieces went off with another instrument, and the the other I haven't used for awhile.

While I agree about the bore size, this subject is a bit trickier than it seems. There really is no true equivalent and this is because of the overall design of the instrument.

I mean that if you switch to a piston cluster, the overall layout of the instrument changes. One of the most critical parts changes, and that is the mouth pipe. This isn't necessarily a bad change, it is just different.

Be it good or bad, a piston valved instrument is just going to blow a bit differently than it's rotor valved cousin, especially if it is from a different maker. This is due to differences in design, material thickness and composition, bell flare profile and diameter, kranz or no kranz, rate of taper and the diameter of branches.

That all being said, if you want a piston equivalent to a Miraphone, you need to stay within that brand, and even then the fundamental design compared to their 186 is wildly different in their piston models.

If you like the 186, stick with it. Why change? I don't mean any offense by this, but I think that you thinking you are cleaner and faster with pistons might be in your head, and if that isn't the case, the horn you were using might need service.

I wish only to help, and these ramblings are only my opinions. I might be wrong.

uhhh...

A 186 with the valve section swapped out for a piston one?

The Miraphone 186 is a standard of sorts. It plays well in tune, slots notes forgivingly for those who have trouble controlling pitch themselves, and works with a range of mouthpieces. It's a common instrument and parts are available. The old ones had a classic sound that bring back sweet memories for many of us. A 186 is also supremely versatile, being usable in anything from a beer-tent polka band to orchestra (though perhaps not for earth-mover works in orchestra).

So, if by "equivalent" you mean these qualitative features, then the only choice I can think of is the King 1241, before they "upgraded" it to the 2341. Every 1241 I've played that was in usable condition had all those same features: Good intonation, easy tone production, versatility, forgiving nature, and sweet sound.

If by "equivalent", you mean that it sounds like a 186 and plays like a 186, then see the other responses.

Rick "thinking the Miraphone 186 and the King 1241 represent archetype Bb tubas for U.S. players of a certain age" Denney

jamsav wrote:Soliciting opinions ( and I know you guys have them ) , In terms of cost , quality and sound production , what would be a comparable piston valved tuba to a Miraphone 186 ? I'm starting to realize that I am cleaner and faster with pistons . I am aware of alternative Miraphones and the King 2341 , but what else should I plan on taking a look at ? Thanks Jim

Considering cost and the alternatives you already have in your radar, I'd suggest also looking at a Conn 4J or 5J.

glangfur wrote:

jamsav wrote:Soliciting opinions ( and I know you guys have them ) , In terms of cost , quality and sound production , what would be a comparable piston valved tuba to a Miraphone 186 ? I'm starting to realize that I am cleaner and faster with pistons . I am aware of alternative Miraphones and the King 2341 , but what else should I plan on taking a look at ? Thanks Jim

Considering cost and the alternatives you already have in your radar, I'd suggest also looking at a Conn 4J or 5J.

I respectfully and absolutely disagree with the Conn piston instruments. With their small bore and narrow bell throat, even though they have a wider bell rim, they do not have the tone to carry what Jim is looking for.

What about something like a Meinl-Weston 2145, or if must be BBb a B&S 3301(PT-2P). Both piston 4/4 of similar size and seem to fulfil the original posters requirements "In terms of cost, quality and sound production"?

The 3301 is closer than one might think to the 186 sound and response. I believe it is because of the elongated lead pipe. The valve cluster is closer to where a rotary cluster is in the bugle. On the other hand, the 3301 weighs close to 10 lbs more than the 186. I really enjoy the 3301 a lot, but a 186 it ain't. A 186 with pistons........maybe, but it's a stretch.

http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/Pr ... e/52J.aspx" target="_blank ?