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There have been several recent threads about add or cutting a horn to change the key. I think the more common change is to add a 4th valve to an existing 3 valve horn. My question is what has been the experience of folks have done this? What are the issues (other than expense)? Is it a good idea? Assuming a piston (top action horn), should the add be a piston or a rotor valve? Does it matter? I'm currently thinking of adding a 4th valve to make a 3 plus 1 horn.

opus37 wrote:There have been several recent threads about add or cutting a horn to change the key. I think the more common change is to add a 4th valve to an existing 3 valve horn. My question is what has been the experience of folks have done this? What are the issues (other than expense)? Is it a good idea? Assuming a piston (top action horn), should the add be a piston or a rotor valve? Does it matter? I'm currently thinking of adding a 4th valve to make a 3 plus 1 horn.

You may find this page from Art Hovey's site interesting:

http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/frugalhorn.html

Not the exact same details as in Brian’s telling:

Howard Johnson plays a 1923 Boosey 3+1 compensating F tuba, but as he used to play the 4+2 Mahillon F tuba he had a repair man making him some sort of lever system allowing the 4th piston being played like a top piston:

opus37 wrote:There have been several recent threads about add or cutting a horn to change the key. I think the more common change is to add a 4th valve to an existing 3 valve horn. My question is what has been the experience of folks have done this? What are the issues (other than expense)? Is it a good idea? Assuming a piston (top action horn), should the add be a piston or a rotor valve? Does it matter? I'm currently thinking of adding a 4th valve to make a 3 plus 1 horn.

Adding a fourth piston is not an easy task and requires LOTS of work to do it correctly. I think that it is probably more difficult to add one to a top action horn due to the space required to fit the piston and the 4th circuit tubing.

Now, making a 3+1 horn that DOESN'T look weird and will be a real challenge, especially if you are not using existing parts.

It helps to know what you are starting with and why you are planning on doing this.

Just my opinion, and I aim to help not harm.

A Yamaha YBB321 is basically a Besson non-comp 3-valve with a 4th upright valve added at the tail of the valve block.

And most 4-valve BBb rotary tubas have as their antecedents the 3-valve version, like the original Zimmerman.

To add specifics to this 3 + 1 idea, I am considering starting with my Martin Eb and using Lee Stofer to do the work. I, of course, would go with Lee's recommendations on go/no go, configuration, etc. I was trying to see what the consensus was with this group and thus provide education to those considering this type of modification.

If you are using Lee to do your work, than you really don't need our opinions. Lee is very good and won't steer you in the wrong direction.

I suspect that he may tell you the same thing that most of us are. Lee if you are out there, what do you think?

At the last TubaChristmas, a guy showed up with a Conn 20J which had a fourth valve sticking out of the side. It was designed to be worked with the left hand. There was a lot of tubing and stuff needed to connect the mess together. I couldn't pick him individually out of the cacaphony so I don't know how it sounded.

Having played a Pan American Eb, on which Lee had made this very conversion, for over a year, I can vouch for your choice of artisan. Not only can Lee make it work, but he has in the past. That PanAm was a great horn. You could not tell it wasn't factory work visually or playability wise. This is the one that got away. What a sweet horn!

The British 3+1 configuration is just one of more options for placement of the 4th piston. This Courtois BBb may have a somewhat exposed 4th stem, but the the ergonomics may be more friendly to some players.

Klaus

I'm actually doing this modification right now with a three valve King alto horn. I'm basically using this as a practice job for adding a fourth to my 20J front action tuba. The trouble that I have run into with this is the tuning slide loops and slide legs that sit in the spot that I'm trying to add the fourth valve to. Luckily to do this you basically have to have a second valve cluster to donate the valve and casing from, usually coming on a horn or as a set with slide loops. My little king has the issue that the 3rd valve slide loop lies close to touch the third casing on the way by, right where the 4th "goes." To fix this problem I took the top crook from the first valve loop which is larger than the top crook of the 3rd valve. This gives you more space for the fourth valve and the 4th circuit. Finding the lower crook to attach the inner slide legs to is a challenge, I'm going to try to use a trumpet main slide with a near perfect width, I'll obviously have to cut down the length of the slide for the added width in the crooks. The second problem I have run across is the main slide leg and finding a way to either use the original main slide, or make or find a new slide. I do not have a main slide at all so I am stuck with the latter. I will attach a pic of what issues I'm talking about, with highlights.

tubatom91 wrote:I'm actually doing this modification right now with a three valve King alto horn. I'm basically using this as a practice job for adding a fourth to my 20J front action tuba. The trouble that I have run into with this is the tuning slide loops and slide legs that sit in the spot that I'm trying to add the fourth valve to. Luckily to do this you basically have to have a second valve cluster to donate the valve and casing from, usually coming on a horn or as a set with slide loops. My little king has the issue that the 3rd valve slide loop lies close to touch the third casing on the way by, right where the 4th "goes." To fix this problem I took the top crook from the first valve loop which is larger than the top crook of the 3rd valve. This gives you more space for the fourth valve and the 4th circuit. Finding the lower crook to attach the inner slide legs to is a challenge, I'm going to try to use a trumpet main slide with a near perfect width, I'll obviously have to cut down the length of the slide for the added width in the crooks. The second problem I have run across is the main slide leg and finding a way to either use the original main slide, or make or find a new slide. I do not have a main slide at all so I am stuck with the latter. I will attach a pic of what issues I'm talking about, with highlights.

I am not trying to dissuade you from trying to add a 4th valve to a 20J, but that job is particularly tricky. If you have a chance, put a 20J next to it's 4 valve brother and have a look at them both. Tell you what, if I have a few extra minutes tomorrow I will do it and post the pictures here. It will take some real finagling to put that fourth valve loop somewhere that isn't cumbersome.

I wish you nothing but luck and want to help. If you want to try something really cool, find a 40K 4 valve Sousa cluster and install that on your 20J body as a front action cluster. Now THAT is a cool project!

Tom, check out Adam Peck's post about adding 3 dependent valves to a 3 valve horn; the make your alto a 6 valver!

BRSousa wrote:

tubatom91 wrote:I'm actually doing this modification right now with a three valve King alto horn. I'm basically using this as a practice job for adding a fourth to my 20J front action tuba. The trouble that I have run into with this is the tuning slide loops and slide legs that sit in the spot that I'm trying to add the fourth valve to. Luckily to do this you basically have to have a second valve cluster to donate the valve and casing from, usually coming on a horn or as a set with slide loops. My little king has the issue that the 3rd valve slide loop lies close to touch the third casing on the way by, right where the 4th "goes." To fix this problem I took the top crook from the first valve loop which is larger than the top crook of the 3rd valve. This gives you more space for the fourth valve and the 4th circuit. Finding the lower crook to attach the inner slide legs to is a challenge, I'm going to try to use a trumpet main slide with a near perfect width, I'll obviously have to cut down the length of the slide for the added width in the crooks. The second problem I have run across is the main slide leg and finding a way to either use the original main slide, or make or find a new slide. I do not have a main slide at all so I am stuck with the latter. I will attach a pic of what issues I'm talking about, with highlights.

I am not trying to dissuade you from trying to add a 4th valve to a 20J, but that job is particularly tricky. If you have a chance, put a 20J next to it's 4 valve brother and have a look at them both. Tell you what, if I have a few extra minutes tomorrow I will do it and post the pictures here. It will take some real finagling to put that fourth valve loop somewhere that isn't cumbersome.

I wish you nothing but luck and want to help. If you want to try something really cool, find a 40K 4 valve Sousa cluster and install that on your 20J body as a front action cluster. Now THAT is a cool project!

haha, well ya see; this is my "20J"


I used a something K short action valveset to do this piece 'o work, I have another cluster to use for parts and the tools to add a fourth to it

tubatom91 wrote:

BRSousa wrote:

tubatom91 wrote:I'm actually doing this modification right now with a three valve King alto horn. I'm basically using this as a practice job for adding a fourth to my 20J front action tuba. The trouble that I have run into with this is the tuning slide loops and slide legs that sit in the spot that I'm trying to add the fourth valve to. Luckily to do this you basically have to have a second valve cluster to donate the valve and casing from, usually coming on a horn or as a set with slide loops. My little king has the issue that the 3rd valve slide loop lies close to touch the third casing on the way by, right where the 4th "goes." To fix this problem I took the top crook from the first valve loop which is larger than the top crook of the 3rd valve. This gives you more space for the fourth valve and the 4th circuit. Finding the lower crook to attach the inner slide legs to is a challenge, I'm going to try to use a trumpet main slide with a near perfect width, I'll obviously have to cut down the length of the slide for the added width in the crooks. The second problem I have run across is the main slide leg and finding a way to either use the original main slide, or make or find a new slide. I do not have a main slide at all so I am stuck with the latter. I will attach a pic of what issues I'm talking about, with highlights.

I am not trying to dissuade you from trying to add a 4th valve to a 20J, but that job is particularly tricky. If you have a chance, put a 20J next to it's 4 valve brother and have a look at them both. Tell you what, if I have a few extra minutes tomorrow I will do it and post the pictures here. It will take some real finagling to put that fourth valve loop somewhere that isn't cumbersome.

I wish you nothing but luck and want to help. If you want to try something really cool, find a 40K 4 valve Sousa cluster and install that on your 20J body as a front action cluster. Now THAT is a cool project!

haha, well ya see; this is my "20J"


I used a something K short action valveset to do this piece 'o work, I have another cluster to use for parts and the tools to add a fourth to it

Well sir, you have it figured out. Keep us posted on the progress. I am jealous of that horn. Really cool.

Making a 4valve 20K sousaphone and the horn fits in a SKB case..Thanks for looking Harv.
http://harvshappyhorns.blogspot.com/200 ... -conn.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

tubatom91 wrote: haha, well ya see; this is my "20J"


I used a something K short action valveset to do this piece 'o work, I have another cluster to use for parts and the tools to add a fourth to it

Now, if only Conn would make a 4-valve production version of something similar!

Tom, how about a picture of that next to your 345?

this is the best I can do, the Conn is a hundred miles away at the moment