Jupiter 582 vs Petersburg 202N

[P@rick]

This is prequel to my previous topic:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43518" target="_blank" target="_blank

My eye is on a 5 year old Jupiter 582 which is going to end on Ebay.de tomorrow (seller confirmed that valves are stainless steel). The price seems alright (maybe I can get it for 2300Euro).
Yesterday I visited a guy who imports St Petersburg Tuba's and tried the 202N with 415cm bell and 450cm bell. The “problem” is that I was overall very impressed. The 450cm bell version goes new for 3000Euro. The only thing which was a very small minus point was that it took some effort to make a sound "which comes out of nothing" (if you know what I mean). It can play ppp but the sound is quite suddenly there. Over the last years I play tested several more expensive tuba’s of all kind and many were easier to control in this regard.

I can't visit the Jupiter from ebay and test it before the bidding ends nor did I ever play a 582 nor is there a shop within close range which has the 582 in stock. The bidding is going to end tomorrow so the dilemma for me is:
Buy a 202N which I know I like (for me still a bit expensive) or buy the Jupiter (tomorrow) which has a good price for me but is a Tuba which I only know from many, many reviews.

From the many reviews and posts on the internet my impression is that the Jupiter is a solid tuba with good intonation overall. The downside is that many people dislike the sound (not very broad sound?).
Can anyone give me advise on the Jupiter vs petersbug? Are they in the same league when it comes to sound/intonation and playability?

I will be using the tuba in all kinds of settings/music/groups. The majority will be smaller groups (below 20 musicians). Occasionally I will play in bigger settings (40+ musicians), but probably not as the only Tuba.

Many thanks for the advice.

[jamsav]

I prefer the overall sound production of the St Pete, its thin brass and relative large bore can resonate beautifully but its thinner lighter walls leave it less durable than the heavier Jupiter...historically , the St pete has also had finish problems around the thin nickel finish literally wiping off of the horn...but they can sound pretty darn good..not a fan of the Jupiter ..

[SousaSaver]

This is like comparing apples to bananas.

Also, don't let people talk you out of trying a Jupiter because they have some sort of hang up or prejudice towards this manufacturer. Jupiter frequently gets a bad rap, but honestly, they aren't bad little horns for their price point. I would honestly take the Jupiter CC over a St. Petersburg any day of the week, but that is just my opinion.

[P@rick]

Thanks guys for your input.

Also, don't let people talk you out of trying a Jupiter...

I know, but unfortunately I didn't have a chance yet to try one yet and now this opportunity to buy one pops up on ebay

[Dan Schultz]

On the 'plus' side.... BOTH of those horns are very easy to get parts for.

I don't have any experience at playing a Jupiter tuba. But... I've owned and sold over a dozen St. Pete 201/202N tubas in the last 6-7 years and never met one I didn't like. I wouldn't be too concerned about durability. These horns get a bad 'rap' because they are cheap enough new to be attractive to middle and high school band directors. They can tear up anything. I've seen Yamaha YBB-641 beat-all-to-hell, too! In good hands... a St. Pete will last just as long. The linkages are prone to damage (again... mainly because of the users abuse) but can be easily replaced with $20 worth of radio-control parts.

[iiipopes]

A Jupiter that old may still have the plated valves that wear prematurely instead of the solid valves now used. I'm not a fan of stainless steel valves, but they're better than the plating that Jupiter used to use. If you get the Jupiter, make sure it has the newer valves. Also, the 2nd valve loop was redesigned so it didn't hold water as badly. The older ones stick straight out, while the newer ones are angled upwards slightly. This was done about the same time as the change in valve material, so look carefully.

The St Petersburgs have come up in overall quality in recent years. If it is a newer one, play it for consistency. The large bore and stovepipe bell can make them a little dark sounding, which some prefer, others don't. Like all rotary horns, it will have the usual 5th partial tendencies, which may be lippable, may be able to use alternate fingerings, or not, depending on the horn.

They are apples and oranges, but sometimes, until you play one of each, you don't know which flavor you prefer. Both will support the ensemble.

For the price of a new Jupiter or St Pete, I would (and did) consider a used King 1241 or 186 instead.

[SousaSaver]

You could always get a good King 2341...



(the image is from an old random tubenet posting)

[P@rick]

A Jupiter that old may still have the plated valves that wear prematurely...

The seller just corrected himself and informed me that the valves are nickel.

If it is a newer one...

It's brand new. It's a guy who imports these since a few months in The Netherlands. I know him from a gig with Andre Rieu.

For the price of a new Jupiter or St Pete, I would (and did) consider a used King 1241 or 186 instead.

Unfortunately I was not able to find a 186 in the playing condition I'm looking for and in The Netherlands/Germany/Belgium you will rarely find a King. And if you find one which is in good condition the seller always thinks it's made from gold instead of brass

I also didn't have the chance to play a King to know anything about them myself besides reading about it.

[P@rick]

You could always get a good King 2341...

Yes but I can't find these over here (The Netherlands/Germany/Belgium) new or used.
In case an older model of this King pops up in good playing condition (used) then the seller thinks it's made of gold instead of brass

Buying one oversees sounds tempting, but I only know the King from reviews.
Many seem to prefer these over Jupiter and St Petersburg.

[sloan]

You could always get a good King 2341...



(the image is from an old random tubenet posting)

So THAT'S what they look like when new!

[Wyvern]

The only thing which was a very small minus point was that it took some effort to make a sound "which comes out of nothing" (if you know what I mean). It can play ppp but the sound is quite suddenly there.

That could just be a mouthpiece mismatch - you need to experiment to see what works (I would try more of a cup mouthpiece).

I was very impressed by the St.Pete I tried - it produced the sound of a much bigger tuba - almost like a compact Kaiser.

[P@rick]

The only thing which was a very small minus point was that it took some effort to make a sound "which comes out of nothing" (if you know what I mean). It can play ppp but the sound is quite suddenly there.

That could just be a mouthpiece mismatch - you need to experiment to see what works (I would try more of a cup mouthpiece).

I was very impressed by the St.Pete I tried - it produced the sound of a much bigger tuba - almost like a compact Kaiser.

I used my TU27 (Rose Solo). Another mouthpiece could defiantly help. My experience is however that I would have to try an more funnel shaped mouthpieces, because cup shaped mouthpieces sound more direct. Am I wrong?
Anyway, if I decide to go for the St Pete I will bring some more mouthpieces next time.

The sound of the 450cm bell model was indeed much more than you would expect from it. The sound has defiantly body. I played bigger ones with less body.

[P@rick]

They both kind of remind me of a yahama 621, which use where I teach, I have that was a very mouth piece sensitive horn, it was very unfocused and had trouble sloting notes, switched and use a PT 65 on it right now and it was like a different horn, the type of player and mouth piece have a lot to with the sound you get out of a horn.

I tried the 621 (YBB) once and I was impressed by the sound for such a small tuba, but I have to say it's far away from the St. Pete sound. I use the PT64 on my Eb and tried it sometimes on Bb's, but it never worked for me. The agility increased but I lost a lot of sound and I had trouble with the low range.

It's like you say: "type of player and mouth piece have a lot to with the sound"

[P@rick]

I had the chance to play a king 1241 last Friday and WOW, I liked it. It was heavily dented, but played great. Nice sound and good intonation. This nice guy who let me have a go on his tuba is not about to sell it. It was also a recording bell and I need an upright bell. I decided that I'm gonna try to get a 1241 or 2341.
I always have an eye open for used tuba's around here (Netherlands/Germany/Belgium) and I know that the King is a rare beast over here.
It will be a long wait before one pops up without being extremely lucky, so I going to try to get one overseas.

Check me out in the WTB section