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So I'm about to go into a Masters of Performance on tuba. I've been playing on a Miraphone of unknown type do to the fact that it's older than the hills and beat half to death. I digress. Point being, I really do love the way the miraphone sings, and I've been told that the newer ones do it even better.

So, I do not have the time (full time job) to drive across the country to try these horns out meaning I have to gather as much opinion as possible. Which would you guys suggest? Nirschl J-700LQ (I've heard nothing but good things on these horns) or a Miraphone 191? Experiences, thoughts and such are very much appreciated!!!

Thank you!
Jason

P.S- I want a BBb, and one of these horns, so please no CC talk.

191

Hi Jason,

If you have the funds available, go with the Miraphone 191. And I want to say that I am glad to see that someone is going to be pursuing a Masters in Performance on a BBb tuba, that is a breath of fresh air in a CC dominate university system. If you don't mind me asking, where will you be pursuing your Masters at??

Keith "will one day be getting a Masters in Performance on BBb also" Sanders

I had a 191 and traded it in for a 1291 recently. The 191 didn't fit me well, and had some tuning problems that required extreme tuning slide adjustments. Which isn't a serious problem except the slides are very hard to reach. It was a good horn as far as sound goes and the rotary valves were very quiet. The 1291 is much better in intonation, fits me perfectly and I honestly like the piston valves although I wasn't sure after owning a 186 and a 191.

Rick

Thanks for all the help guys! Looks like the miraphone is the way to go. To answer all relevant questions or comments

1. Masters at SUNY Fredonia, NY (yes, may the world cry out in anger and disagreement, but if you put the best of the best next to eachother, between the CC and BBb, the BBb will be darker and more resonant every time, granted MOST of this is in the players hands )
2. I will deeply consider the offer on the 1291, I have to sort out my present funds to see if I could afford it at this time.

3. You guys have all been awesome, thank you very much!

191s rock, but 1291s are a bit easier to play.

As a former owner of a Nirschl, I would be hesitant to recommend it. Not a big fan of Miraphone (Mirafone) now, but I would go with that.

These two random choices for:

1. Money reasons, in terms of BBb its hard to find instruments of that quality for that money (at least I assumed of the Nirschl)
2. The Miraphone has the larger bore, this may come from misinformation, but I wanted the larger bore to allow for more volume, the tuba I'm on now has a rather small bore and my dynamic range is limited before it starts getting too grinding.
3. I love the way the miraphone sings.
4. I've heard a LOT of good things about the Nirschl, Don Harry even played with it in a concert in Buffalo
5. I'm a college student...money gets two slots on this list.

Isuma wrote:These two random choices for:

2. The Miraphone has the larger bore, this may come from misinformation, but I wanted the larger bore to allow for more volume, the tuba I'm on now has a rather small bore and my dynamic range is limited before it starts getting too grinding.
3. I love the way the miraphone sings.

If you love the sound of a Miraphone I would go with that. I just got a Mirafone 186 and love it. I have not played the Nirschl.

You mentioned that you want the "largest bore available." Are you sure about that? That used to be my line of thought, but the more I play, the more I realize that I sound better with a manageable bore. For example, I currently own a Miraphone 1291 (bore 0.835) and I enjoy it. I struggle to fill it up sometimes, but I enjoy it. Then I played a Nirschl (bore 0.748) at Midwest. At least to me, I got a fuller, cleaner sound. I also felt way more comfortable playing it compared to my Miraphone. Now, I know there are many factors that effect the sound of a tuba other than bore, but I've got to think that it plays a large role. Now, for the other end of the spectrum, I used to play a King 2341 (bore 0.687). I enjoyed this horn also, but like you mentioned, I was able to overblow it easily and did feel limited on the forte end of the horn.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't just assume that you need "x" (large bore, rotor, piston, silver, etc.). If at all possible, TRY THE HORNS YOU ARE INTERESTED IN!

Patrick Haymore

No no, I don't want the largest, just a larger. The .730 bore I'm playing through right now really resticts my FF and FFF range as I overblow and get that knarly sound that just doesn't blend well with...anything really. As for trying the horns, I would much rather do that when spending this kind of money, but between school and a full time summer job my ability to travel 5 hours to the nearest tuba dealer is severly limited...Though I much agree with your advice

Focus. I may have lousy articulation, puff my cheeks, whatever, but if you focus your air correctly you can lift the skies.

I've never played the Nirschl or the 191 but I own a 1291 5 valve Bbb.

The 1291 currently for sale is the lowest price one of these has been offered at for a while.

You won't have any problems playing either loud or big on a 1291. It just keeps going without breaking up. The 1291 projects more than you realise from the playing position. (Based on hearing many recordings I've made of various ensembles in different halls).

There are bigger BBb's but they're starting to get into the special purpose tuba field.

The 1291 has a lot of soloistic colour and interest in the sound over the whole range, it's not a dull, band tuba section instrument. It will make whatever sound the player has in their head but tends to have more of an American rather than German sound.
For some people the low register is a bit raspy, a lot depends on the player. It speaks very easily and clearly in the low register. I've heard a few people say that it's low register is better than the 186 - doesn't bark when pushed.

The 1291 is quite heavy to pick up. The bell is close to your left ear compared to taller tubas - you have no trouble hearing yourself.

From reading Tubenet posts on the subject I gather that:

1. The 191 roars more down low but the 1291 is a more civilised instrument and more even over the whole range - apparently the 191 can sound like a different tuba in different registers.

2. The 1291 BBb is a better instrument than the 1291 CC.

3. The 191 has a not so nice low C and B below the stave. (My 1291 is much better on these notes than any other BBb that I've played.

My 1291 seems to have different intonation to that reported by other players. I don't use any of the fifth partials on mine. You can reach all five valve slides easily with the left hand and I find adjusting pitch on it to be fairly intuitive, as in, "I feel that I want to go down on this note, ah, the slide's right under my hand, I can just do it". (I'm a slide puller - I don't like lipping).

The 1291 responds to a large tuba playing technique - relaxed, slow warm air and open throat. You don't blow hard or force the sound on these. You try to swallow the rest of the ensemble; not cut through it trying to be heard.

Miraphone lovers will tell you the 1291 is the best BBb ever made. People who hate Miraphones will grudgingly say that they can't believe it came out of the same factory as the 186.

I hope this is of some help.

Regards

Gerard

I think the 191 (and it's CC brother, the Bruckner) is the best horn Mirafone ever built. Make sure you get the 5-valve version. Good luck!!!

I've been very happy with my Miraphone 191 -- buying new, 5 valve and gold brass will cost, though. The previous poster's link to the 1291 in the For Sale section seems like a pretty good consideration...

Thanks everybody for your help! I actually got to borrow a Nirschl for a week. All I can say is it's amazing. Beautiful sounding horn, has that velvety feel that reminds me more of a CC, but still the rumble of a BBb. However, something I didn't count on is due to a hand injury from a few years back it becomes very painful to play on these piston horns. I thought it might just be the Nirschl, but I tried a new king, an old king, a friends CC (no clue what it is) and have the same problem, the spacing and angle of the fingers is just too much for my hand. This leaves me with rotary valve instruments, which is unfortunate because I really really love the Nirschl. Thank you all for you input and advice!

Jason

Check out a Miraphone 1291... it's a piston tuba, but the valves have a short throw and it's really comfortable!

If I were you I would wait until there's a big conference nearby, then go try every BBb you can lay your hands on. You may be extremely surprised at horns you never even considered before. I would have never picked my euphonium if I hadn't gone to Midwest. (Although maybe my teacher would be thankful? lol)

(Perhaps I'm only saying all this because you didn't mention the Fafner. )