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hello, i need help on playing loud. i always get told im the loudest in my section of 12 but when i play loud, my tone gets really spread and ugly, not like my usual dark tone. i play on a Denis Wick 1XL mouthpiece and on a Miraphone (dont know exact specifics, it has four valves); Conn 20K during marching season. is the problem just me, or the mouthpiece, or the horns, or what? any help would be greatly appreciated

goodgigs wrote: Generally speaking, a true vurtuso has at least 10,000 hours on his or her instrument. EDIT uh that's gotta be wrong !
I did the arithmetic and that would an hour a day for thirty years. It's more like an hour a day (average) for 10 years. Sorry

Or 3 hours a day for 10 years. I don't think you did the math wrong.

bloke wrote:the sorority (which will tend to spread)

This has got to be one of the all-time greatest spoonerisms in TubeNet history.

While it has its critics, I think one good place to start is breathing exercises and specifically, The Breathing Gym program (http://patricksheridan.com/store/index. ... ex&cPath=1). It's designed for younger brass students by pros Sam Pilafian and Pat Sheridan. A lot of people think it's just about breathing deeper. It's also about breath control and it should help with playing pp and ff, if you get into the habit of exercise your breathing daily.

I know breathing exercises have been around far earlier than Sam and Pat, but the nice thing is they created an entertaining and user-friendly curriculum for students. They have DVDs and books. If you can't get both, I recommend getting the DVD to see how they do the exercises correctly. Take it slow at first, be patient, and practice (breathing and playing) everyday.

On playing loud, one common mistake is to tighten up as you try to blow as hard as you can. Every time I play ff, I relax my body, take a big relaxed breath, open up the aperture slightly, and make a big, pretty sound within the ensemble sound. If you're mentality is to play louder than your neighbor (or worse, the ensemble), you'll probably create that bad tone you recognize so much.

Just my non-professional opinion.

bloke wrote:Playing extremely loud and controlling both the pitch (which will tend to go way sharp) and the sorority (which will tend to spread) usually takes several years to master. This is something to practice, just like flexibility and speed. Unfortunately, practicing "playing loud" (particularly before one masters it) can be pretty annoying to one's neighbors and colleagues.

Some mouthpieces can help somewhat as can some instruments, but are not shortcuts.

What he said. Excellent advice.

The 1XL is a pretty large mouthpiece and I would wonder if you went to that beacause your softer tone was rather strident and harsh - a bigger, deeper mouthpiece will moderate this a bit. It cures the symptom without fixing the underlying problem. The first question I would ask is "which lip is doing the work?"

I have seen a tendency for many younger players to come through buzzing the lower lip against the upper lip which kills resonance and gives that harsh tone. The upper lip should be vibrating against the lower lip in most embouchures but many younger players are not instructed on this in the beginning and it makes it a little harder to change over to an embouchure that is more resonant and doesn't go harsh on you.

Check it out to see if this might be the problem.

Just my $0.02.

Roger

thanks everyone, i really appreciate the help. ill look into the breathing stuff and start practicing right away

Biggs wrote:

bloke wrote:the sorority (which will tend to spread)

This has got to be one of the all-time greatest spoonerisms in TubeNet history.

I've always thought chicks dig tuba players. I know I have a button on my German hat that say that.

To be a bit more serious, it is my belief that Miraphone tubas, esp. 186s, tend to break up a higher dynamics.

Its all about air and control. No coincidence that those who can play well loud can also play well very softly.

That's actually one of my pet peeves about a lot of bands -- the inability to play softly. Loud and louder is no fun to listen to or play!

gnrguitar64 wrote:i need help on playing loud. i always get told im the loudest in my section...

I am a little concerned about the underlying assumptions of the original question.

I think the focus should be on playing musically, not loud. Sometimes the music demands a full tone, but "loud" playing means nothing, because the idea of "loud" is not connected to an organic musical idea.

LJV wrote:Wes Jacobs has a book entitled "Loud Playing," go figure. It's an organized method for developing a the ability to create a loud, and yet beautiful sound. Worth a look...

Where could I actually get a copy of said book. I've checked amazon, but it's not on there.

Hey Roger, where did you get to?

Roger Lewis wrote: I have seen a tendency for many younger players to come through buzzing the lower lip against the upper lip which kills resonance and gives that harsh tone. The upper lip should be vibrating against the lower lip in most embouchures but many younger players are not instructed on this in the beginning and it makes it a little harder to change over to an embouchure that is more resonant and doesn't go harsh on you.

Roger,
Can you expand on this? Are your talking of overbite vs. underbite? I am sorry but I am having a hard time visualizing this concept. I want to know more.

Randy

What I am referring to is a current trend that I have noticed for many younger players to be buzzing the lower lip instead of the upper lip. This is usually with a traditional overbite. I have not had any students with an underbite to see the differences but imagine that an underbite would lead to a lower lip buzzing that would be more successful.

Buzz your lips without a mouthpiece and find the direction that your air is going. If the air is going upward when you are buzzing without the mouthpiece, then you are most likely letting the wrong lip do the work. I inherited a bunch of students from another teacher one year and they all had this rather strident, unpleasant sound. I could not for the life of me figure out what was going on. I placed corks between their upper and lower molars to make sure that they had their jaws open and it did not help.

Finally I put them on a visualizer and had them buzz and found that they were all using and upstream air - meaning the lower lip was doing the buzzing. I have found that using the lower lp kills resonance of the instrument, creates a rather unpleasant sound espeically loud in the low register and it was very edgy.

Check this out to see this is the direction of your air stream and let me know. If it is what's going on there are some exercises I developed for my students that will correct it in about 2 weeks or so. I had one student accomplish the transition overnight and came back playing extremely well with a great sound. Every now and then he would slip, but he was able to easily recognize when it happened and correct it.

Right now I'm at home catching up on some honey-dew projects that have been neglected for a while because I was too busy with WWBW. Once I get these caught up, I'll look to see where I can land to get back nto the swing of things with all my friends. If you need to reach me just give me a yell on my cell phone 269---506---5312 and I'd be happy to chat. If I don't get the phone it probably means I'm up on a ladder correcting some ceiling cracks in the family room while getting it ready to paint.

All the best to you all.

Roger

As said earlier in this post: It`s all about air control.
What is playing loud?
Well a good definition is: As much air as possible through the mouthpiece (and instrument) as fast as possible
BUT (and a big one), Do NOT change the embochure - just the air speed.
If you can manage to control the air at fast speed you probaly can control it at low speed, and then you also can play soft
Roger

There is a flute tonal study by Louis Moyse that applies well to any wind instrument:

Start with the easiest note to produce a good tone (3rd or 4th partial open tone (G or C for CC tuba or F or Bb for BBb tuba) and then work downwards chromatically to your bottom note, then go back to the first note and work up chromatically to your top note.

Use the following rhythm and slur when changing notes: Dotted half, quarter then whole note. Play the dotted half and quarter on the first note, then the whole note a half step below (or above, depending on which direction you are progressing), then repeat the pattern on the same two notes. Move down one half step, (or up) and repeat the process, etc.

Start each eight-count set at a dynamic level of Piano and crescendo for the full eight counts to Fortissimo. Don't go to a louder level than you are able to produce with a good tone. (Most people don't want to hear a bad tone ever.) If people are saying you sound bad when you think it sounds good, then that's an indicator that you need to listen more critically to yourself.

This exercise gives you the opportunity to learn to "carry" your best tone to the extremes in both volume and range.

Practice it every day, and focus on both tone and pitch. The volume (and range) will come IF you make tone your priority.

wonderbread403 wrote:While it has its critics, I think one good place to start is breathing exercises and specifically, The Breathing Gym program (http://patricksheridan.com/store/index. ... ex&cPath=1). It's designed for younger brass students by pros Sam Pilafian and Pat Sheridan.

Using The Breathing Gym along with The Brass gym (http://www.justforbrass.com/the-brass-g ... 114218.cfm) have made a significant improvement in my playing. They work to give you an overall smoother sound with a dark, rich tone while improving your ability to maintain control of your tone at all volume levels.

Also Snedecor's Low Etudes for Tuba (http://www.justforbrass.com/low-etudes- ... 115944.cfm) develops your airflow to accommodate for the large volume of air needed for your low register. Using that type of airflow for your middle and upper ranges improves tone and control over your sound.

SFA Tubajack wrote:Also Snedecor's Low Etudes for Tuba (http://www.justforbrass.com/low-etudes- ... 115944.cfm) develops your airflow to accommodate for the large volume of air needed for your low register. Using that type of airflow for your middle and upper ranges improves tone and control over your sound.

If you like those, you'll LOVE these:

http://www.kfsbrasschamber.com/Etude-Books.html

My two cents. When I have played on a Helleberg or similar mouthpiece in the past (because Hey, it's a Helleberg, right?), it is too large and flabby in the low register. I moved to a PT 50 that has a good size deep cup but a narrower throat. The slight increase in back pressure from the narrow throat provides for a healthier buzz and has helped tighten the sound up a lot.

Plus good, deep breathing of course.

I always had the same question, how can i play loud and not sound like a b-52. A grad bass trombonist told me, " its not about playing loud, but playing full". Try thinking of the sound coming from the bottom of your gut and just covering the room, hall, etc. like a giant blanket with your sound. This is what I imagine when im playing "loud"