TubeNet

Hello,
are the tubas JinBao JBCB-450, M&M CC5/4 and Schiller American Heritage 5 valve piston identical instruments?
What is to tell about the quality of the silver plating? (JinBao and M&M)

Best regards
Ulli

Hi-
If you are talking about the 4 piston, 1 rotor CC tuba JinBao 450, then all 3 are similar. I have a silver plated JinBao (different model) CC coming that I ordered & paid for a LONG time ago--I'll let you know what the plating is like when I finally get it.

mark

Without poking around the Internet to confirm the models, it is virtually certain the other two are stencils of the Jinbao, the only actual manufacturer in that list.

I have the Schiller BBb 4 rotory valve tuba in Nickel. It is a good solid playing axe. I posted a review awhile back and you can see it at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43772. I've found the plating is good in nickel. Although I would not expect Anderson Plating quality when your not paying the extra 3 to 10 grand.

Hi!
I have sold Two Silver plated Tubas to Tubenet members. Yadent has a silver 981 clone. you can pm him and ask how his is holding up! Mark's horn is the 3rd. silver axe I've ordered for a TubeNet member. I screwed up on my end ordering the wrong axe, and am waiting on Mark's CC along with several other silver horns. I expect them to be flawless!

Al

Thank you for your replay.
I asks the music-store Cologne/Rhine for a JinBao CC-450 and they assured, to take up this horn in their product range. ...and now I'm waiting and waiting...
That's the background to my question, whether I should order a M&M or Schiller per ebay- if it is the same horn.
Ulli

Ulli, importing to the EU from the US is a costly affair only worthwhile with unique instruments.

Insured shipping is costly.

The import duty only is around 2 or 3% of the combined invoice price and shipping costs, but you also shall pay VAT (Mehrwertsteuer) of the combined costs. Add to that administrative costs which may vary a bit depending whether you are allowed to do the paperwork yourself. I have paid between 20 and 125 Euros for such costs.

There are German importers putting their own names on Chinese instruments. You may ask Thomann or Bob Tucci (Hornbörse) among others. Maybe you are closer to Musik-Produktiv. I don’t know much about the Dutch market, but they have a huge band scene, so investigations may be worthwhile.

Klaus

Klaus, you are right: Duty is 3,6% and VAT will be 19% for purchase price and shipping costs. And it will be problematical, if the horn comes with any damage.

Otherwise: The Music store Cologne is only 70 km from here. I can go and look and test the tuba- if it will be available one day :-/
Ulli

cktuba wrote:Has anybody played one of these yet? How are they? I believe the M&M is listed as having a 19" bell and a .802 bore... but that makes no sense since Jin Bao is the manufacturer and they are listing them as having an 17 3/4" bell and a .767 bore.

Is it possibly a different model?

I don't know what accounts for this particular difference. I do know that the information on Alibaba about these instruments tends to shift around some over time. Clerical errors perhaps?

Ulli, I have sent you a PM. Can help you get a JinBao JBCB-450 at good price!

Kind Regards,
Jonathan

Ulli wrote:Klaus, you are right: Duty is 3,6% and VAT will be 19% for purchase price and shipping costs. And it will be problematical, if the horn comes with any damage.

Otherwise: The Music store Cologne is only 70 km from here. I can go and look and test the tuba- if it will be available one day :-/
Ulli

Hi Ulli, I have bought a Jinbao trombone from musicstore köln. Really great instrument for nearly no money. I have also browsed their webpages for tubas and noted that for the moment they have no Jinbao C-tuba. However I got inspiration from you and will also ask them for the JBCB-450 and perhaps some other interesting instruments. If you see or hear any news from them regarding the JB tuba line could you please let us know? As uou said, it is a bit easier to be able to both test and buy inside the EU than from far away because of both the import rates and the return procedure if something is wrong.

Yes
M&M Tubas are made just for M&M Comany and there are some miner and some major changes
They have ther own line at the factory and have spent much time upgrading the instruments
Other people may bring instruments in from this factory but it is not an M&M
M&M has warrantee service and parts for all instruments they sell
And are never under sold by any dealers
They carry a large stock and usual ship in 1 day

Hello
We ship to Europe all the time ,2 day by air cost depending location ap. $360.00
We ship M&M Instruments insured and all you pay is duty on wholsale price

Thank you
M&M Instruments

Hi-
Be very careful with the model 450, whether it is marked JinBao, Schiller, and/or M&M. Unless great changes have been made to it since last year and also since the 2011 Army Conference, I would want to try it out extensively before a purchase is made. That is all I am going to say whether on this Board or in PM email regarding this instrument--period.
My 2 cents...

mark

Dear mark

M&M Tuba was at the US Army Convention in January and had 2 -450 M&M up graded CC Tubas there, 1 in Silver and 1 in lac , They were both sold to profesional Tuba players for there own use and students
The feed back from them is , fine instruments and well worth the price paid
Will be glad to share their names and address with you if you contact us

M&M

tubamlb wrote:Hello
We ship to Europe all the time ,2 day by air cost depending location ap. $360.00
We ship M&M Instruments insured and all you pay is duty on wholsale price

Thank you
M&M Instruments

For recipients within the EU this is positively untrue. Duty is paid of the sum of invoice price and shipping costs (including insurance). And there VAT is added as a percentage (varying with the country) of the sum of invoice price, shipping costs, and duty.

Klaus

Hate to get involved with this shippin thing put we have delivered many instruments with out the buyer paying large taxes, I guess that is why we send so many instrument to Europe
Thank you for bringing this mater out so timely also when the dollar is so low and the Euro is so strong

Best

How do you know about the buyers not paying VAT and no duty beyond the one calculated on basis of the wholesale price?

The payment is collected by the carrier at the buyer’s end of the shipment. Telling potential buyers that they shall not pay these taxes (and actually also a noticeable fee to the carrier for the tax collection) in my eyes is a very bad style of marketing. Other sellers, like some on eBay, make explicit disclaimers telling that it is the buyer’s own obligation to get information on local import regulations and taxes.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:

tubamlb wrote:Hello
...Duty is paid of the sum of invoice price and shipping costs (including insurance). And there VAT is added as a percentage (varying with the country) of the sum of invoice price, shipping costs, and duty...

I have bought a couple of instruments from the US over the years and I always have to add 3.25% customs plus 25% VAT(moms in Sweden) and if it is shippet via the Postal system SEK 100 + VAT 25% (about USD 20) for handling in Sweden. Usually the shipping cost alone together with insurance, for a bass trombone is about USD 100-125 with the USPS + the 3.25% + about USD 20 + 25% on the total. When sent via for example UPS, DHL, FEDEX or other like services always those 25% + 3.25% added on the total. And those companies are always much more expensive than the postal system to begin with, like about USD 350 (for a btbn) and up...
So, usually I have to add around 30% on the total from the seller to see the 'real' price. If I have to return something then things begin to get really complicated...

On the other hand the beforementioned Jinbao trombone (OK, it was a tenor without attachment) sent from Germany by UPS had a shipping cost of EUR 15 delivered to my door by UPS, and the Yamaha YBB-103 I got from Holland last year was EUR 38 for shiping with the German DHL. No extra charges on stuff bought from and shipped inside the EU.

However it is great to know that we can buy stuff from the whole world, we must only be very attentive for the extra charges when importing things over the big barriers. BTW, USD 360 as M&M offered to send tuba to Europe is great, but always calculate with the extra charges that will be added. The US dollar is now favorable for us in the EU irrespective if we use the EUR, SEK or whatever.

Yes,
It is the buyer who is responsible for taxes and duty in there delivery area, BUT we do send many instruments to Europe the proper way do save these charges as much as possible
The only people that are complaining are dealers and tuba repair shops ,since they dont have the old rotted out instrument to make money with

Thank you