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I have just got an old French small instrument that is marked PELISSON GUINOT & BLANCHOU. Anyone that know anything about these? There are some pictures in the ebaylisting at:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWNX:IT
For the moment it is barely playable but I think it could be made to sound beautiful again without too much work. What do you think, is it worth to put some time in it to have it sing again?

Is this in the key of C (not CC)? Is this what is called a "French C Tuba"? It doesn't look to be too bad off but the pistons look like they might need a little/lot of work. It doesn't look all bent to death.

"Is it worth it to fix it up?" is always subjective. If you develop a liking for the horn and have a few hundred USD to spend and know a reliable source for the work, it might be OK. Considering the key, I'm not sure exactly what kind of group would play in such a horn.

Though my French isn't so good, I can tell from the eBay posting and the picture of a 3-valve horn that this is not a French tuba in C (those have 5-6 valves).

The seller says it's a saxhorn in Bb. I don't know much about their worth or playability or versatility. My guess would be along the lines of a euphonium or baritone in sound/range.

bloke wrote: ...several differences, but looks something like a modern-day Weril baritone...
...Further, the design hints at both a C and a Bb version from one basic model...

Thanks for the comments so far. Still something to be found out about the origin though.

I think it also have a close likeness with old B&H and Besson baritones?!

The instrument is in Bb, but you hinted about the C or Bb from the same basic instrument. In fact the long tuning slide before the 1st valve is meant to be in two pieces, one long and one really short. For the moment it is not possible to separate the parts but I think that when they are again working as supposed there is a chance that it would tune the instrument to C or Bb. Or maybe it is only a smaller shift for high or low pitch. We will see as soon as I can have the pieces separated.

All comments appreciated.

It is a dual purpose Saxhorn for the pitches of C and Bb. C for non-transposed church playing from the hymnbook (or dance playing from the piano sheet). Bb for playing in a band. The lang insert in the main tuning slide may be stuck currently, but the intention was an easy shift between pitches. The valve slides appear being pushed into the their positions for the C pitch.

If the instrument doesn’t leak and if the valves work properly, this instrument is as functional as any three valve low brass instrument without a trigger or without a compensation system. Turning it into a French C tuba would take the addition of at least two more valves. It has to be a quite good player in the first place if such project should ever be worth any considerations.

Klaus

Still the auction price appears fair, if you can get this one ready for playing one of my boyhood favourites at Midsummer: Mälaren runt. Sadly I can find neither the music nor a recording on the web.

Klaus

The pistons are probably raw brass. It won't take much to make them work, but don't expect this horn to play anything like its modern counterpart.

It's probably not in A=440. This is more of a collectors item or a horn for use in a period orchestra.

imperialbari wrote:...It is a dual purpose Saxhorn for the pitches of C and Bb...

That's interesting. Seems to be an instrument worth to salvage.

imperialbari wrote: ...Turning it into a French C tuba would take the addition of at least two more valves. It has to be a quite good player in the first place if such project should ever be worth any considerations...

Well, that may be too much. It would be nicer to have it working in it's original configuration I think. For a nice real saxhorn basse in C the instrument on the following link would be better?!... :
http://annonces.ebay.fr/viewad/Petit-tu ... 5029161419

imperialbari wrote:... Mälaren runt. Sadly I can find neither the music nor a recording on the web...

Always curious about new, at least for me, music so I will check this one up with the old guys, maybe it is possible to dig something up.

bloke wrote:' several differences, but looks something like a modern-day Weril baritone.

The configuration of the old instrument, though, would allow for a very easy shortening (hours, rather than days) from Bb to C. Further, the design hints at both a C and a Bb version from one basic model.

It also looks like a Weril C Euphonium

I just got some information about the age of this horn from a friend. He said that with the names of the inscription on the bell it would have been made some time between 1905 to 1931. It seems that not so many instruments from this maker are still alive. Mine is slowly recovering and may be playable in the not so distant future.

If anybody stumbles over another horn of this make, or some more information, it would be interesting to know.

I got it back from the shop now in a bit more playable condition, not totally restored but all the slides is loose and the valves is aligned and works. It plays with a nice mellow sound. Intonation is good when tuned to C but not so good with the extensin to Bb. I do not know how to include the picture but you can go here to see it.

Good it works. And it is much more interesting in C anyway, so the intonation being best in that pitch is also a good thing.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:Good it works. And it is much more interesting in C anyway, so the intonation being best in that pitch is also a good thing.

Klaus

Yes to all of it. But I did not get it back in time for Midsummer

BTW, I have asked the elderly about 'Mälaren runt'. No one recognizes it as a tune, only as a bicycle race?!

The Danish FDF (equivalent of British Boys Brigade) played in the 9-piece military brass formation that I often have told of. When I was a boy there were 6 compilations, band book, called Partitur 1 through 6. They were a great benefit, as bands could join for massed bands of whatever size. The arrangements were pilfered from mostly military sources. Partitur 5 was an all-marches book, where Mälaren rundt was in the first third of the book (don’t remember whether the spelling was Swedish or Danish, but most likely Danish).

I will see if I can get my hands on that old score, but I am no longer member of that organization, so it might be difficult.

Klaus

Aha, so it was 'rundt' not 'runt'. I did a search and found a link to the the Swedish Bicycle Society's Bicycle Library listing. The title is found at 'Sheet music with bicycle motif'. It is also found in Helsingbors Konserthus archive as of type marsch/piano. Maybe the elderly I asked were not old enough...

It could be very old. All of the many very small Danish regimental bands were cut for budget reasons around 1931. Only the lifeguard band was kept. Some bands then were re-erected during the first years of WWII for the sake of the national spirit. The basis for the FDF scores easily could be from pre-1930.

I played the valved alto trombone, so aside from the opening trumpet call, I only remember -pah-pah-papparazzi from that march.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:...It could be very old...

It says about 1895 in the Helsingborg listing so it is old. A pity that all those regimental bands that were all over in the old days are gone. So much live music that unfortunately is no more. The situation is the same here in Sweden. And all those black books with scores and parts that was burnt together with the instruments that were trashed. It seems that it is only the Norwegians left here in Scandivaia that understand the importance of wind bands ...

imperialbari wrote:...I played the valved alto trombone...

The small one with rotary valves?

I once owned a "Triebert" three-valve baritone in Bb that looked very similar to this instrument. At the time, I thought it a post-war junker, but I see now that Triebert was bought by Gautrot in 1881 and soon after was absorbed into the Couesnon conglomerate. Probably, Couesnon made Triebert-labeled brass instruments at least into the 30's. I did not mourn it's departure from my possession, even if it was old. It was certainly not from a different pitch system than I was used to, so I doubt it could be older than the 30's.

Here's one from a Horn-U-Copia listing:



My point: This was a common style for a baritone horn in France for the better part of a century.

Rick "who bought it for $100 and got little more as trade fodder" Denney

Lingon wrote:

imperialbari wrote:...I played the valved alto trombone...

The small one with rotary valves?

Yes. Actually two different ones. First a Schmidt-Copenhagen small bore one. And then a Gofffried-Copenhagen one with quite large bore stack and throat. I tried to locate the latter maybe 40 years ago, but sadly in vain. My 4 current altos all are with slides, even if the Conn has a Bb valve.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote: ...First a Schmidt-Copenhagen small bore one. And then a Gofffried-Copenhagen one with quite large bore stack and throat. I tried to locate the latter maybe 40 years ago, but sadly in vain.

Those valved ones would be nice to have today. Maybe there is a renaissance for the valved trombones coming?! Just look at the small bore slides that are slowly popping up here and there again.