TubeNet

Hey TubeNet. I'm currently a junior in high school. I've been playing for about 5 years now. I get in about 2 or 3 hours of playing a day. Recently, I've noticed a few issues with my playing that I just don't know how to fix. I don't know if they are just fundamental issues, or issues with my mouthpiece/horn combination. I play on a 10 year old school owned Yamaha YBB-641 BBb and a Giddings and Webster Alan Baer MMVI stainless steel mouthpiece.

First, I can't get the bump between middle F and G smooth. Next, my middle C doesn't always speak. I'd say it cracks about 70% of the time. And from Db down, I can't get the volume I'm looking for without spreading the tone. I feel like the limit is forte. I've tried using a Marcinkiewicz Rose and love the low end of that mouthpiece. I can get as much volume as I want with a good tone. But it just doesn't play as well as my MMVI.

I would appreciate any advice that you guys can offer me.

Thanks!

Your issues only can be addressed responsibly by a knowledgeable person listening to your playing while watching how you do it. That person also should be able to test you outfit for malfunctions. My immediate doubts rather are about your instrument than about your mouthpiece.

Your terminology about notes doesn’t convince me. So your problems don’t become clear and specific to me. My only comment about split notes would be that these are symptoms of discrepancies between the player’s intonation and the resonances offered by the instrument.

This may come out arrogantly to a young person, but being specific on the basis of your description truly would be irresponsible.

Klaus

I recommend you go have a lesson (or several) with Dave Zerkel. dzerkel@uga.edu" target="_blank

Justin

Aside from the many great suggestions to take a lesson with someone, I am confused by your problems.

What is a "bump" between notes? Last time I checked, there weren't supposed to be bumps between notes, but it could be an issue of terminology. What happens when you sit down with a good tuner and buzz on your mouthpiece between F and G?

What do you mean the middle C won't speak? Also, do you mean the C in the staff or actual middle C above the staff? Have you tried playing it with fourth valve? What happens when you sit down with the tuner and play middle C on your mouthpiece and then impale the tuba on the buzzing mouthpiece?

As to volume on the lower notes, what happens when you buzz the notes on your mouthpiece? Are there volume problems then?

bloke wrote:

bloke wrote:

goodgigs wrote:I have no clue about your f-g thing !

bloke sometimes appears being entirely sane. As we see here that is only a clever, but temporary, disguise, now when he approaches horn discussions:

leghorn versus off-leg horn

K

With an implicit quote:

Who does f-g care?

K

For what it's worth I played on the same horn until very recently and I had some troublesome middle Cs as well. After switching it's no longer a problem. (But we could have both been doing the same wrong thing, too ). I'm a high schooler in GA, as well, it's cool to see another!

Colin

I played that same horn for several years (a 641; not his horn). The 'bump' is the slur between f (bottom space) and g (first line), if I'm not mistaken. Again; I experienced the same problem. My solution was a Miraphone Rose Orchestral. Your problem might not have anything to do with the MP, however. Try slurring from f - g, as open to 3rd valve (minor tuning issue). Yes, I know that this alternate fingering is not overly practical; but until you get to playing something like a Miraphone (or better?); it might work for you.

As to the middle C (Above the staff); it can be played either 0 - 1 or 4 - you just have to hear it in your mind). All horns have quirky notes - you may have found yours

Take the advice for what it's worth - my 2cents.

I think that F/G "bump" is on most BBb tubas, just like the G/A "bump" on most CC tubas; especially rotary tubas. Some are less severe than others though. But it does take lots of practice to get that transition smooth when slurring.

Some people don't like the YBB-641 because it is not as point-and-shoot as some other easier to play tubas. But I find the sound and low range of that horn superior to most tubas in it's class.
Lots of rotary tubas - especially older ones - don't have the most even response throughout the range. Some notes "slot" better than others, some notes respond better, etc.

The more recent postings have pointed towards the more precise nature of the problems. As I hinted in my first reply, I do not like that tuba model. It was the first BBb tuba I ever tried, and I then decided against playing BBb at all. Fortunately I tried other models a few years later, which I liked much better.

I still will not offer specific advise. Rather I will take the F-G bump as a sample.

Gunter Schuller in his now quite old book on French horn technique addresses slurring on the horn, which in his case (as in most cases) was a rotary instrument. He uses diagrams to show how he recommends increased air pressure to overcome the resistance of the slurring across a shift of fingerings. He also puts weight on getting the timing of the process right. The movement of the valve has to be fast, and the valve shall be in the right position just ahead of the correct rhythmical placement of the note slurred to. The increase in air pressure in turn shall occur ahead of the start of the valve movement, but not so early that an erratic crescendo becomes audible.

When a legato shift is a problem, it sometimes is helpful to divide the problem into smaller steps. The said F-G shift is across a shift in partials, 3rd to 4th. The same shift can be done on the 4th partial alone, albeit with a less desirable sound and/or intonation of the F.

Just for the practicing of this situation play the G with the 3rd finger, which may come out with a slightly flat intonation. Try pulling the 1st slide so that the intonation of F becomes tolerable with the fingering of 1+3. Not try slurring forth and back between F and G by moving the 1st valve for as long your breath will allow. And I mean until you really run out of air. Repeat until the shift becomes smooth even when your air goes low. This is the simplest version of that shift.

When that step has been mastered, then reset the first slide to its normal position. Now try slurring between F fingered 4 and G fingered 3. That takes a very crisp and precise shift of valves. Get this one right with low air also.

Next step is about doing the same slur with F still fingered 4 and G fingered 1+2. Also takes very exact valve movements.

When you have gotten these three variants of the slur right, you should have raised your awareness of pitch and rhythm for that slur so much that the slur from open F to G fingered 3 or 1+2 has become easier. Continue practicing that slur until you have made the right air pressure and the timed fingering second nature.

Klaus

Brian C wrote:Aside from the many great suggestions to take a lesson with someone, I am confused by your problems.

What is a "bump" between notes? Last time I checked, there weren't supposed to be bumps between notes, but it could be an issue of terminology. What happens when you sit down with a good tuner and buzz on your mouthpiece between F and G?

What do you mean the middle C won't speak? Also, do you mean the C in the staff or actual middle C above the staff? Have you tried playing it with fourth valve? What happens when you sit down with the tuner and play middle C on your mouthpiece and then impale the tuba on the buzzing mouthpiece?

As to volume on the lower notes, what happens when you buzz the notes on your mouthpiece? Are there volume problems then?

What I mean by a bump is that it isn't smooth. The partial change is really obvious. I don't have any problems buzzing. And I mean the C in the staff. It just doesn't center immediately. I know it isn't an issue with my range. I can hit a double BBb on a good day, and can consistently play up to the G right below that.

Your problem with C in the staff kind of speaks for the quality of your ear. That note is quite low on most BBb tubas with a regular length 1st loop. If you buzz the correct pitch, the will be no resonance for that pitch. Try fingering that note 4 as your standard and see what happens with the frequency of cracks.

I once tested an Amati piston BBb sousaphone. When I tried to play that C with 1st finger, there wasn’t even a cracked note. It didn’t speak at all. If I aimed for a B natural still fingered 1, that note would sound. Horrible instrument.

Klaus

Alright. Thanks for all of your help guys!

I also am one who does not like that model tuba. Several of the problems you listed sound to me like either rotor misalignment (either linkage or bumper stops wearing out) and/or a soldering/leak problem (including water keys) and/or something stuck in a tube somewhere. Even if it has to come out of your own pocket, I'd take the horn to have a good cleaning, checking over for leaks, and rotor/linkage alignment done on it.

Second, yes, it's time to get lessons. The F to G slur can be rocky or smooth as much because of proper technique and air support as well as lack of it, and learning how the horn wants to "speak" this and other similar slurs, going up from an open note to a valved note in the next harmonic series. I echo the advice to try open to 3 and 4 to 3 as well as the "conventional" open to 1+2 to see if either of these alternate combinations is smoother. You may have to "ride throttle" on #3 or #4 valve slide to keep it in tune.

It's really easy for something to go amiss, even for experienced folks. The last concert with my community band, I was having a devil of a time getting the opening phrase of Washington Post to speak fluidly. It turns out in practicing I had let myself slip into a bad habit of not precisely getting my articulation and valve movements together, and the horn burbled. Five minutes of working on once I figured out what was wrong fixed it. But the ability to self-diagnose doesn't come easily or quickly. Also, if the embouchure tends to spread instead of firm up as the slur is played, even with proper breath support, it will lose focus and crack or not speak at all, even if the horn is perfectly set up. So yes, getting a teacher at this point to make sure you're still progressing properly is a high priority.

If I recall, these tubas have a larger bore, but smaller bell, which was an attempt to get a darker, more "Alex" type tone out of it like the model it's cloned after. But the metal used is too thin overall to give the stability the horn needs. But hang in there. At least you do have a horn to play.

Sorry that above you had to deal with all the crap from the rest of TNFJ. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.