Why am I doing this?

[Lew]

I have said for some time that if someone is going to be a music educator, and not play with a large orchestra regularly, a BBb tuba would seem to me to be the best choice. If you are teaching Bb players all day, why not play on the same type of horn.

That said, if you already have a CC tuba that you like, I don't think that you are likely to be better off selling it to get a BBb. Yes, a BBb tuba generally costs less than the equivalent CC tuba, but you may not realize that benefit in the buying and selling. If I were buying a tuba today (as an amateur) I would probably get a Miraphone 1291 BBb. The difference in price between the BBb and CC versions of the 1291 is about $400, not enough to be the reason for choosing one over the other.

Still, I don't think it would be worth selling what you may think of as a "lesser" CC instrument to buy a better BBb.

[tubathig]

I understand exactly where you are coming from. I just finished my master's degree and CC is what I have played almost exclusively for the past three years. I am now teaching band and I teach Bb instruments all day. I really don't worry about it, because eventually I hope to have some tuba players playing on CC. If it were me, I wouldn't switch

[Dan Schultz]

I am now teaching band and I teach Bb instruments all day. I really don't worry about it, because eventually I hope to have some tuba players playing on CC.

I don't totally understand your comment. When you say you are hoping some of your students will switch to CC, does that mean that even though you now have little use for playing CC, you are attempting to switch your students to CC?

Dan 'I own a CC but still don't get the fascination' Schultz

[tubaman5150]

Which one do you like better?
Answer that and you'll have answered your other question.

[Lew]

... If you have a tuba that is worth something and want to sell it and buy something cheaper of like quality, you might want to switch. I wouldn't switch to find a better tuba in BBb, you might be disappointed, unless you have already found a better BBb tuba than your current CC.

You have said what I was trying to say, but in a much clearer way.

[Rick Denney]

Couldn't I get a better BBb than CC for the same money? Should I switch back? Any suggestions?

I always advise other tuba players with no professioanal performance aspirations just to stick with Bb and don't worry about the expense and difficulty of making the switch. There's so much of the snob factor in all this, where those who play C look down on those who play Bb, while those who play Bb automatically feel inferior to those who play C. This is nuts. Anybody who looks down on a Bb player should be forced to play one, and anyone who feels inferior playing Bb should take heart from those who do so professionally with top-notch results.

Another reason for my advice is that good Bb tubas are considerably less expensive than C tubas of the same quality.

All of this advice works for those for whom any competent tuba is good enough. Some players, though, find a special instrument that they feel like gives them their voice. I got that reaction from a converted York that I played several years ago at the Army Conference. If Mr. Fedderly hadn't been selling it for about three times what I could afford, I'd have strongly considered taking it with me. The Meinl-Weston 2000 is another C tuba for which I would learn C fingerings if someone gave it to me. I have found a large Bb tuba that gives me the same response as that converted York, so for now I'm protected from overt temptation to make the switch. The point is that an unusually inspiring instrument can provide the motivation to play Bb instead of C or C instead of Bb. Does your current C tuba provide that inspiration? Perhaps not, else you might not have posed the question.

But if there is no value for most players in switching from Bb to C, there is also no value for most players in switching from C back to Bb. If the C is already what you are used to, then why change?

If you need the money worse that the C-playing cachet (assuming that your current instrument does not inspire continued ownership), the select instruments you think are acceptable and do the math.

Rick "who would rather have a great Bb tuba than a poor C tuba" Denney

[Leland]

There's so much of the snob factor in all this, where those who play C look down on those who play Bb, while those who play Bb automatically feel inferior to those who play C. This is nuts.

Imagine the grief received by those of us who still play GG "tubas"...

[Rick Denney]

As far as the current discussion goes, I feel that most of the industry's effort is going into the CC, thus producing a higher quality horn. However, when you look at the staying power of the BBb "standards" like the 1291, and you cannot help but see the value in such a versatile, "teaching-friendly" horn.

I don't think it's completely true that most of the industry's efforts are devoted to CC tubas. There are too many top pros who use them (outside the U.S.) for the makers to relegate their best BBb tubas to less than their best work.

The 1291 is a good example. Miraphone just introduced that instrument two years ago, and in BBb before CC. The new King 2341 has come out in the last three or four years, too. The Miraphone 191 is not particularly old in the market--certainly not as old as the trend to CC among American pros--and Miraphone has never followed the rotary 191 with a CC version. Rudolf Meinl has always had high-end BBb tubas including the Bayreuth model in its lineup. Meinl-Weston came out with the Fafner in just the last several years. Willson makes the 3100 along with the 3050, and charges nearly as much for it (it doesn't have the fifth valve). And Gronitz advertises the PBK, which would be a wonderful thing to see in person if it has any of the qualities of the well-regarded PCK, to which it is identical except for the extra two feet of tubing. Of these, only the King is priced under the middle 5000's, which is well above the school market. Most are priced along the same lines as their CC counterparts.

And Baltimore Brass has chosen to buck the trend and take some of the big Holtons that have come their and make them into first-class big BBb instruments instead of converting them to CC. These instruments are not cheap, but they found buyers even without the high polish and silverplating.

I don't think we'll see BBb tubas invading American orchestras, of course, or even making big inroads into college programs, but players who want to stay with BBb have options that, as with top-line CC tubas, reflect their makers' best work.

Rick "seeing more high-end BBb action than in a long time" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I'm gonna make this as brief and to the point as possible. So, please excuse me if I sound ignorant.

We tuba players tend to make more commotion about equipment than any other section I know. Just play the friggin' horn! As far as equipment goes, find the horn/mouthpiece you like and gives you the sound you want (regardless of key) and stick with it!

While I agree in principle with the sentiment, I cannot agree with the fact. I sit behind a row of amateur trumpet players who, judging from their full three-horn cases, spend a great deal of time thinking about equipment. I'm about as much of a tuba collector as any hobbyist, but there's no way I can or will afford the tuba equivalent of that Monette held by a guy who plays no better than I do. I've heard flute players argue endlessly about the configuration of the tone holes, the head joint, and all that other flute esoterica. And don't get me started on the saxophones, the players of which in many cases can't do anything but peel paint with them.

We are bad, perhaps, but we are not the worst.

Rick "who thinks following Mr. of Time's advice involves not feeling guilty about owning a better horn than one deserves" Denney

[Leland]

We are bad, perhaps, but we are not the worst.

I think we'd be just as bad if tubas were as cheap as trumpets...

Of course, for a trumpeter, not all of them are going to be as comfortable reading differing fingerings for differently-keyed parts. Plus, the usual trumpet-n-picc "quiver" will cover 99% of typical amateur/semi-pro situations, and it's not that difficult to justify a set of horns for less cash than a single tuba.

[cjk]

Willson makes the 3100 along with the 3050, and charges nearly as much for it (it doesn't have the fifth valve).

I played a quite kick-*** 5-valve Willson 5/4 BBb (3050?) at bloke's shop while visiting the folks over Thanksgiving. Willson's web site only shows a 5 valved 3050 fwiw.



http://www.swissprofi.ch/willson/instr.html

it was quite reasonably priced, too!

[Dan Schultz]

We are bad, perhaps, but we are not the worst.

I think we'd be just as bad if tubas were as cheap as trumpets...

Of course, for a trumpeter, not all of them are going to be as comfortable reading differing fingerings for differently-keyed parts. Plus, the usual trumpet-n-picc "quiver" will cover 99% of typical amateur/semi-pro situations, and it's not that difficult to justify a set of horns for less cash than a single tuba.

I'm glad this was said. I was criticized by a trumpet player a couple of weeks ago because I missed a few fingerings on a difficult passage. I explained to him that I play Eb, BBb, and CC tubas and usually rotate them at our weekly community band rehearsals so I can keep my chops in shape. He didn't have a clue that the fingerings changed for the different keys. Frankly, I think student trumpets should cost $20,000! Maybe then there wouldn't be so darned many of these snotty morons!

[Rick Denney]

I played a quite kick-*** 5-valve Willson 5/4 BBb (3050?) at bloke's shop while visiting the folks over Thanksgiving. Willson's web site only shows a 5 valved 3050 fwiw.

...it was quite reasonably priced, too!

It depends on what you call "reasonable". Last I saw, the 3100 (which is the BBb equivalent of the 3050) was selling in the $9000 range. It's a big instrument--I've played a couple of them at the Army conferences. They are like what I hear about 3050's: big, heavy, and with very little feedback to the player. It takes a lot of confidence to play one.

Rick "who also could not figure out what to do with his left hand on that instrument" Denney

[tubajoe]

He said "so why do you play a CC tuba?". So why do I do it?
BR

For me, CC is probably most versatile in all keys -- practically all rock/folk etc is usually in sharp keys, and jazz, orchestral, chamber etc can be in any key. It's only in the "band" world do things lean in the direction of flat keys. (the more horns you play with, the more chance it will be in flat keys... the more stringed instruments, the more the sharp keys)

Sure you can play in any key on any horn, but sharp keys on Bb are not as efficient. If concert/brass band playing is what you plan to do, Bb is good and is perhaps most efficient... but its efficiency stops there -- the rest of the world plays in all keys.

Murph: Hey! Why'd they turn out the lights?!
Willie: Maybe they blew a fuse.
Lou: I don't think so man. Those lights are off on purpose.
Elwood: Okay. We gotta figure out something these people like and fast.
Murph: Hey I got it. Remember the theme from Rawhide?
Elwood: The old favorite. Rowdy Yates.
Murph: What key?
Donald: A. Good country key.
Elwood: Rawhide in A!

[Rick Denney]

Put it in your pocket...It ain't no Holton...The Willson actually has a scale

You're right. It ain't no Holton. It does not have the resonance or color of a Holton. And if you'd ever come to the Army conference instead of always finding excuses not to, you could toot a bit on my Holton and tell me if you think it doesn't have a scale.

My beef with the left hand was that I could not reach any of the slides reasonably with the left hand, and there was no place to grab that didn't twist my fingers in a knot. That thing is too heavy to hold one-handed, even perched on a K&M stand.

Rick "who'd be in real trouble if his Holton didn't have a decent scale" Denney

[Lew]

He said "so why do you play a CC tuba?". So why do I do it?
BR

For me, CC is probably most versatile in all keys -- practically all rock/folk etc is usually in sharp keys, and jazz, orchestral, chamber etc can be in any key. It's only in the "band" world do things lean in the direction of flat keys. (the more horns you play with, the more chance it will be in flat keys... the more stringed instruments, the more the sharp keys)

Sure you can play in any key on any horn, but sharp keys on Bb are not as efficient. If concert/brass band playing is what you plan to do, Bb is good and is perhaps most efficient... but its efficiency stops there -- the rest of the world plays in all keys.
...

Sure, but he is a band director and therefore will be spending most of his time with students who will be playing BBb instruments, therefore, why not BBb.

The larger question is, why do the vast majority band students learn and play on BBb tubas? I think you answered this yourself. That being the case, why not play on a BBb?

[TubaTodd82]

Sure BBb instruments may be less expensive, but in my experience I have never played any BBb instrument that played anything close to the way my PT-6 plays. I have played a great many tubas and my opinion still stands. On every BBb horn I played there was a huge difference in sound and in quality. Also, the key of the horn doesn't really make any difference when dealing with sharps and flats if anything you should play scales more and put less blame on the tuba. Sure we place a lot weight on equipment, and I think that all instrumentalist do for the simple fact that if your instrument or mouthpiece is prohibiting you from achieving your goal it may be time to upgrade to something better. Once you find the right combination then sure stay with what you have, even then what does it hurt to try new things? One never knows when a change of equipment might help you accomplish something or make something easier. I'll now step off of my soap box.

[Kevin Miller]

I use a right facing Besson 981 Eb to teach my students who predominantly play left facing Mirafones, along with traditional euphoniums. It makes it easier to read off the same stand. Also, they can't cheat and look to my fingerings for help. It's fun busting them when it's obvious they are doing just that.

[Leland]

Sure, but he is a band director and therefore will be spending most of his time with students who will be playing BBb instruments, therefore, why not BBb.

Ya know, when I was learning valves in drum corps (I was a strictly a trombone player until then), I learned valve sequences partly by watching players next to me and at the far end of the hornline.

You can't assume that a kid is just listening to your words or reading the instructions on the page -- they're probably looking really closely at your fingers, too. Now, it's not impossible to teach a BBb-playing kid while you've got a CC, but using the same key of horn might make it that much easier for them.

[Rick Denney]

Sure BBb instruments may be less expensive, but in my experience I have never played any BBb instrument that played anything close to the way my PT-6 plays.

Well, of course not. But that doesn't mean a BBb instrument would not suit another player as well as your PT-6 suits you. Don't extrapolate. European pros routinely play BBb instruments when they want a contrabass, and they play instruments like the Meinl-Weston 195 and the Rudy Meinl Bayreuth--first class tubas by any standards and with no need to blush in the presence of any C.

And the new Miraphones are impressing more than just band amateurs. The 1291 can surely compete with instruments like the PT-6, assuming a good fit with the player.

It's hard to diagnose what inhibits us, because we are not good at establishing cause and effect. I still say that if the original poster felt like his CC was uniquely suited to him, he'd have never for a moment consider the issue that he is presenting.

Rick "who thinks the PT-6 is a fine tuba but who would not learn CC fingerings just to play one" Denney