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Well it's spring and the Ms, says I can get a new horn. Pretty nice of her if you ask me. I know I want an Eb (because I'm too lazy to learn new fingerings). I'm am intermediate player who primarily plays in quintets at church. I use it for some solo work too. I occasionally play in community band and of coarse, Tuba Christmas. This horn will be my only horn and will likely be the last one I ever purchase. I would like it to slot easily and be fun to play. My budget is large enough to include most professional horns. I don't have a real preference for piston or rotary valves. Top or front is O.K. too. My current horn is an Martin large size Eb (3 valves) that plays well. I'm looking to upgrade to a more modern horn that will keep me happy a long time. I know the best bet is to go play a lot of horns, but I'm far enough away from a location that would allow that, it is not a likely scenario. So, I'm looking for suggestions form those who have more experience that I do. If I were leaning anyway right now, it would be a Norwegian Star or 981 or Yamaha something or Kanstul 66T or MW 2141......

In my opinion the Besson 983 is the do all horn if that is going to be your only one. I love mine. It is big enough to handle everything that you're talking about, yet small & nimble enough to not over power the smaller groups or the solo settings. I've never regretted getting mine. I do consider selling it once in awhile, but that is due to finances rather than the horn itself. However, everytime I think about selling it, a gig comes along that helps me remember why I purchased it in the first place.

I'm in the Fargo area (about 4 hours from you) so if you ever make it this way you'd be more than welcome to come give mine a try.

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If you have a larger budget, then a Willson or M-W might be candidates, as are the Miraphone offerings, in both rotary and compensated.

And if you want to save your $$, the St Pete does get good reviews.

If you want to save some cash, get a really versatile horn, and don't mind top-action, find a used Yamaha YEB-321S. Lotta bang-for-the-buck, and if you decide you want to upgrade later, you can sell it for what you bought it for (assuming you buy used). Do a search through the archives for threads about this model.

You could spend a lot more for a horn that isn't much better.

Willson.

The YEB321 Uncle mentioned is a fairly cheap option if you get it used, but might not be that much of a step up from your present horn. I can attest that the 2141 can almost give you the oomph of a contrabass, and wwbw has them in stock. Oystein does wondrous things with a Norwegian Star Lite, but to me that has a somewhat lighter soloistic tone and might not be the best instrument to anchor a band tuba section if that is what you want.

I used to think the Besson 983 was my favorite, but after comparing it to the Kanstul 66S, I prefer the Kanstul. The 66S has lighter valves, faster response, and I prefer the 5 valve setup.

Best,

Ferguson

Thank you for your comments so far. I was almost convinced the Norwegian Star was going to be my horn. The consensus here is Besson 983, MW 2141 or Wilson 3400. For a cheaper option a St. Pete or used Yamaha. I will look closer at these horns. I really liked the frank comments about the Norwegian Star characteristics. That was very helpful for me. Knowing the why not is as important as the why. Kanstul still is in the running, but other posts suggest those horns are hard to control the tone. I hope I'm not reading too much into those comments.

You choice of instrument may depend on what you want to sound like. If you want to sound (and look) like a German F tuba, the Norwegian Star is the way to go. It's the best rotary valve Eb I've played.

Baadsvick plays the Star Light, definitely a solo sound, but I think the Star is a good all purpose horn.

If you like the sound of your Martin you may want to look at the Kanstul, it should be close to the sound you have now, though not many people have played them. You order and accept, from what I've heard. That makes me nervous after a bad experience with a 6/4 I ordered (with great recommendations), anybody can make a lemon.

If you are considering the Besson 983, it's a safe bet. Prices are reasonable but you may want to wait and see what the Jupiter Eb will be like. I would.

For a high end tuba, the Willson is as good as it gets. It's not going to be cheap or easy. You won't be able to choose between 3 or 4, you'll have to take what you find.

The Yamaha 321 Eb is definitely the best bang for the buck. You have to spend more than twice as much to get a better horn.

Don't be in a hurry and once you buy something, quit looking! Practice and enjoy what you finally decide on.

FWIW...

My personal horn is a Besson 983. Solos, quintets, section horn in band. Slots easily with good pitch, and is FUN TO PLAY. Love it, not changing. I got used to the compensating valves in about two weeks. Makes a nice dixieland horn, with enough wattage to carry a 6- or 7-piece group.

At work, I use a B&S PT-22, an Eb tuba not mentioned too often. When the $$$ became available for a horn at work, Besson had just folded, and I had to pick something OTHER than a 983. The PT-22 is 5-valve, great for quintet and band section work, slots easily with good pitch. Provides a little more foundation than the 983, which makes it ideal for the band, yet the 983 is a bit more fun to play.

Based on your original post, I'm guessing you'll go with a 983 or a MW 2141. The PT-22 is a great axe, but it's expensive. Same for the Willson 3400, which probably provides more foundation than any other Eb out there. Expensive and HEAVY. That thing weighs a ton, but brings the CC tuba sound. That's great for some players, but I don't think you'll find it worth the strain on your back or your wallet.

I didn't look into the 3+1 compensating tubas too closely, because I'm too lazy to get used to fourth valve on the left hand. Don't rule those horns out--a Besson 981 Sovereign or a Miraphone Ambassador would fit your needs and better fit your budget. Speaking of Miraphone, I echo the sentiments from a previous post, the Norwegian Star is too light for my taste as an ensemble horn.

Haven't looked into other posts, but the Kanstul Eb tubas I've tried are super cool. Controlling the tone isn't a big deal, the tone is super cool. Controlling the pitch is another story, especially on the little 4-valve horn. They copied the old York EXACTLY, including old-school stuffiness and response. That 5-valve horn, though, that's got some real potential. You should definitely keep that in mind.

If one of those little Yamaha 321's shows up, and the price is right, your search may be over. That's one of the easiest Eb tubas to pick up and play ever made. I really enjoyed the 621 F tuba I used to have. I wish Jupiter would put the horn they built for Pat Sheridan on the market already. Not sure what they're waiting for.

At the end of the day, though, a used 983 or a used 2141 will come along, and give you the best bang for the buck. My opinion only, your mileage may vary.

Thank you for the additional comments. They are very helpful to me. I have done what any good engineer would do, create a spreadsheet. Then I go on my lawn mower and thought about it (think Forest Gump). Right now I'm down to a Kanstul 66S, MW 2141 and Besson 983. All look good to me and about the same price. Based on bore, the Besson and Kanstul are close to my Martin where the 2141 is considerably bigger. The comment about "what do you want to sound like", really hit home. I was practicing in church last night and really liked the sound of my Martin. I also think the advice about choose a horn, play it and don't look back is really good. The 983 players are all in unison about really liking that horn and it is fun to play, is a great endorsement. So, now I think a bit more..... Have final performance for the summer at church this Sunday. I'll concentrate on that. These comments have been a real support and help to me. I think it a testament to the quality of people who play low brass. I'll let you know what happens. It should take a while to resolve.

I've played all the instruments recommended extensively, with the exception of the Kanstul. They are all fantastic. I'd consider adding one more in the mix - the MW 2040/5, especially if you like the tonal qualities and range of the MW 2141. I love the playability of those 2040s I have played - even back to back with the other great Ebs suggested in this thread. The 2040 is remarkably free blowing, good intonation, and can cover all the situations you mention. And it is usually $1500-$2k less than the 2141. It's the 2141 with rotary valves. Those I have played had slightly slow valves for me, but that could simply be a break-in issue.

If you are going to plonk down several thousand $$ on a tuba, I'd strongly suggest adding a few hundred dollars to your budget and take some road trips to shops with lots of Eb's to try. Even if it means delaying your purchase for a few months. It's great fun play testing different instruments, and you'll formulate your own feelings on what works best for you. Look at ITEC and other events where you can hit many vendors.

Think of this approach as both a vacation, and an investment in a relationship with an instrument you will devote a considerable amount of your life developing perhaps your greatest passion...

I bought a Yamaha YEB-321s from Dan Oberloh a few years ago (the pic is still on his site). I was too lazy to learn Eb fingerings and sold the horn to a former U.S. Marine Band member. I really wish I still owned that horn now. It was one of the earlier versions. There's a guy in my community band, 85 years old, that plays one of these and sounds great on it. Of course, he's been playing Eb for 70 years, but . . .

The top action valves never bothered me. The horn was about 36" high and put out plenty enough sound for band section work. If you are the only tuba in the 100 piece band though, maybe not the best horn for you. They do come up from time to time and a good one can often be found for $1700-$2500.

Don't write off the 3+1 Ebs.

Most of my career has been spent on one, and Euphonium players will tell you that a) it's no big deal to "learn" to use your left hand on the 4th and 2) your pinky is week and 3) You CAN do ANYTHING - technically or balance wise - on a 982 Besson or an older Imperial. There are Willsons, Yamahas and Hirshbrunners of that configuration too. I would take a 982/modern York over a 983 in a millisecond; and Eb is my life. While the timber of the 983 is closer to the Imperials (and I do like it), you simply cannot have the dexterity with a 4th in on your pinky - it's physically impossible to rip a chromatic scale through the "trigger" range with your pinky held down - humans aren't built like that.

The MW, Willson 5v, and the others mentioned are all awesome, and I'd love to try the Kanstul. But Besson figured this stuff out 50 years before anyone else was even in the game!

I'm interested in grabbing a Jupiter and putting a left hand lever on the 4th - might be cool; but you can’t' play these as good contrabass substitutes with that configuration.

Your mileage may vary, I suppose, if you have a very unusual, non vestigial, strong, dexterous pinky. But even piccolo trumpeters usually figure out the 4th works better on the primary finger of the other hand

J.c.S. (Great Eb Defender of the Cosmos)

Hmmm,so all of us who've been using our rt pinkies for years on front action horns r...genetic accidents? Ur posts always pass the smell test so,I must b misunderstanding...

MikeMason wrote:Hmmm,so all of us who've been using our rt pinkies for years on front action horns r...genetic accidents? Ur posts always pass the smell test so,I must b misunderstanding...

I can see the issue - and I have several instruments with the 4th on my pinky... All of which I like very much.

However; there's a reason the "main" three valves are on our first three fingers, and why most 3-valve instrument players use fingers 1-3, not middle through pinky. Euphonium and horn players use more dexterous digits for their fourth valves... usually thumb or left index. (there are exceptions).

An index finger is more dexterous than a 4th finger. Ergonomically, it's difficult to build a front action instrument which capitalizes on this and is playable for long periods. And there's not the market drive to do so, and 4 valves on the right hand work fine. I've never seen a 3+thumb tuba (not sure why, could be worth a shot) and the 3+1 left bell tubas don't allow for slide pulling. Top-valve folks don't do this so much, though Euphers have been getting in on that action more and more with main slide triggers for their behemouth euphoniums. Could be done on a tuba too.

Yes we can use our pinkys. Place your hand flat on the table and lift your ring finger alone. It's that kind of design fundamental in our bodies which makes the little finger slightly less powerful and dexterous, and which hampers the action of our other fingers slightly when we employ the pinky in a depressed position. Our thumb and first three fingers do most of the work in our lives. Woodwinds have the primary scale tones on the six main digits. We might consider that as well. Like Vienna tubas (ducking for cover).

J.c.S.

J.c. Sherman wrote: you simply cannot have the dexterity with a 4th in on your pinky - it's physically impossible to rip a chromatic scale through the "trigger" range with your pinky held down - humans aren't built like that.
J.c.S. (Great Eb Defender of the Cosmos)

Tell that to most pianists.

MartyNeilan wrote:

J.c. Sherman wrote: you simply cannot have the dexterity with a 4th in on your pinky - it's physically impossible to rip a chromatic scale through the "trigger" range with your pinky held down - humans aren't built like that.
J.c.S. (Great Eb Defender of the Cosmos)

Tell that to most pianists.

Well, there is the story of Franz Liszt wrecking his hand trying to gain independent use if his ring finger.

Having played a top action horn for 30 years or more... I'm considering the 3 plus 1 horns. Strange no one have mentioned the Yamaha 6XX horn which is 3 plus 1 where the 3XX horn is suggested a lot. Right now I'm leaning toward the Kanstul 66T....... And I'm exercising my pinky finger.