TubeNet

I am a long time lurker of this website, and I would like to raise a question that has come to my mind.


With all of these top orchestra players trying out (high quality) BBb tubas, liking them, and they being available for sale, could this be a turn for trends in the USA? These high profile players seem to be able to do some gear experimentation once they get the gig. My main concern is that if a new to the scene, young candidate (with little resume) showed up for an audition for an orchestra (USA) with a BBb tuba, would anyone really care? Since CC was a trend (I think) originated (or just highly used) in America, I feel as though showing up to a German audition with a CC tuba would be a mistake. Maybe showing up to an American audition with a rotary trumpet would be weird too? (Even though it seems that some orchestras have been using these instruments extensively also?).

However, the trend seems to be in America leaning towards the Arnold Jacobs style/sound of playing. I find this interesting because what if Jake never got that York tuba? What if it was never made? Would everyone in America be playing copies of Chester's Alexander? Or exact copies of Roger Bobo's Miraphone 184?

I feel as though those players are great examples of making their OWN sound and bringing it to the table, as opposed to a new, current generation trying to replicate what wins auditions, or what is considered "right" or "appropriate". The amazing thing is that Arnold Jacobs COMPLETELY developed his style BY HIMSELF. (who did Jake listen to for the "ideal 6/4 tuba sound"?)

Back to the main topic- in auditions, you are replacing someone, but does that mean copy? As tuba players, we are lucky that we are the only tuba in the group, as opposed to almost every other instrument on stage where the style of playing and sound needs to be unified throughout the section (You could argue the trombone/tuba section, but I am specifically speaking of timbre and color of sound). Would a BBb (or German) sound turn off a USA committee even if you played the @#$% out of it? Would playing Meistersingers on F tuba (in America) be a bad idea? Does none of this matter?

Something to chew on, thanks.....

I duno...

Ask your teacher.
Also, refer to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43925&p=380115

With all of these top orchestra players trying out (high quality) BBb tubas, liking them, and they being available for sale, could this be a turn for trends in the USA?....

How many equates to "all these"?

tubage wrote: My main concern is that if a new to the scene, young candidate (with little resume) showed up for an audition for an orchestra (USA) with a BBb tuba, would anyone really care?

The committee will not know or care what key your tuba is in. In major orchestra auditions, the preliminary and semi-final rounds are almost always done as blind auditions, as in they cannot see you. That's to ensure it's as unbiased as possible and that the committee is focused on what they are hearing, not who you are, what you're dressed like, are or what you're playing on. Remember only one person on that committee will be a tuba player. The rest will be other brass principals, probably a percussionist, and the rest will be string players. They all have a slightly different idea of what you should sound like, but I promise you they won't spend 1/2 a second thinking about what key tuba you've got. When you hit the final round and the screen comes down, still nobody will know what make/model/key your tuba is in except MAYBE the outgoing tuba player, but if you've made it that far, your choice of instrument clearly falls in line (at least to some degree) with what they are looking for.

tubage wrote:
Back to the main topic- in auditions, you are replacing someone, but does that mean copy? Would a BBb (or German) sound turn off a USA committee even if you played the @#$% out of it? Would playing Meistersingers on F tuba (in America) be a bad idea? Does none of this matter?

Copy? In a fundamental sense, your goal should be to do it better than the last guy.

Would a Bb tuba or "German" sound matter even if you played the snot out of it? That's a different question than "would anyone care if an audition was played on a Bb tuba." The answer to the sound question is it depends. If they're looking for a "German sound," you're in luck. If they're looking for an "American sound," you're out of luck. Auditions are short. In 10 minutes or less the committee will be focused on far more fundamental elements than that. If they make any "sound" comment it will probably be along the lines of bright/dark/big/small.

Wanna play Meistersinger on F tuba? If you can nail it on a tuba in F, great. Again, the committee will not care about your choice of instrument.

Tom wrote:
The committee will not know or care what key your tuba is in. In major orchestra auditions, the preliminary and semi-final rounds are almost always done as blind auditions, as in they cannot see you. That's to ensure it's as unbiased as possible and that the committee is focused on what they are hearing, not who you are, what you're dressed like, are or what you're playing on. Remember only one person on that committee will be a tuba player. The rest will be other brass principals, probably a percussionist, and the rest will be string players. They all have a slightly different idea of what you should sound like, but I promise you they won't spend 1/2 a second thinking about what key tuba you've got. When you hit the final round and the screen comes down, still nobody will know what make/model/key your tuba is in except MAYBE the outgoing tuba player, but if you've made it that far, your choice of instrument clearly falls in line (at least to some degree) with what they are looking for.


Copy? In a fundamental sense, your goal should be to do it better than the last guy.

Would a Bb tuba or "German" sound matter even if you played the snot out of it? That's a different question than "would anyone care if an audition was played on a Bb tuba." The answer to the sound question is it depends. If they're looking for a "German sound," you're in luck. If they're looking for an "American sound," you're out of luck. Auditions are short. In 10 minutes or less the committee will be focused on far more fundamental elements than that. If they make any "sound" comment it will probably be along the lines of bright/dark/big/small.

Wanna play Meistersinger on F tuba? If you can nail it on a tuba in F, great. Again, the committee will not care about your choice of instrument.

'Just a little nit to pick from the bolded part. Sometimes a lesser player replaces the outgoing player. Not often, but it does happen. Just sayin' Otherwise the rest of your post is fine and dandy.
I will also say that back when I was at college (conservatory) I was talking with the trombone teacher about auditions one day. He personally told me: "well, sometimes they have someone in mind". This trombone player/teacher is in a top 10 US orchestra. I knew from then on that the orchestra audition panels do not necessarily pick the best player; they pick the player who they like the best and fits in best with the ensemble. This could be any number of reasons......you just don't know.

Btw, there were/are some pro BBb orch. players out there in the US....James Jenkins (Jacksonville Symph.), the late Ross Tolbert (ret. Minnesota Symph.), the late Ev. Gilmore (ret. Dallas Symph.). I am sure there are more that I can't think of at the moment. There are many more BBb pros in other fields.......doesn't Nat McIntosh play on a BBb souzy? And it is reported that some players like Pokorny use a big BBb for some of the more 'low-register' composers like Prokofiev.
In Germany and Russia they use BBb's on all the big works by Prokofiev, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, some Wagner, etc. A good BBb works GREAT for those composers' pieces.

tooba wrote: I will also say that back when I was at college (conservatory) I was talking with the trombone teacher about auditions one day. He personally told me: "well, sometimes they have someone in mind". This trombone player/teacher is in a top 10 US orchestra. I knew from then on that the orchestra audition panels do not necessarily pick the best player; they pick the player who they like the best and fits in best with the ensemble. This could be any number of reasons......you just don't know.

Well, sure, they sometimes have someone in mind, but it's not really all that simple. Most major orchestras have audition requirements and procedures that are detailed at length in their master agreements that require auditions to happen. Under almost no circumstances (these days) can an orchestra committee or music director just appoint an individual to a given position. That doesn't mean that the orchestra is required to HIRE after conducting an audition, just that they can't appoint people without conducting an audition.

Plus, when the committee does have someone in mind, it does NOT mean that the person in question has THEM in mind. When this happens, the individual is without question playing in another orchestra that the committee and music director consider comparable or better. The individual probably has a "good" position and is being paid "well." They might even have a house they'd have to sell plus wife, kids, etc. to consider. Once they look at the big picture, that person may not even WANT to make the move, no matter how much that person might be in mind for the job. The golden boy doesn't always get the job. And, auditions are expensive to stage and finals rounds REQUIRE the Music Director to be present by contract. This is much, much more of a scheduling difficulty than any outsider would ever imagine, so we dont' do auditions just to go through the motions. We do NOT simply schedule audition dates until the "chosen one" shows interest and shows up to play.

The committee composition is set up the way it is because different people on the committee are looking for different things. The Music Director wants the best player, period, and is FAR less concerned about if the winner is a nice guy or not. The trombone players on the committee (assuming a tuba audition) don't want to have an @$$ in their "section" for the next 30 years. The other brass players are probably going on your sound and intonation. The string players perhaps more for style. The point is that each member of that committee has their own personal bias and "wish list" going into it whether they know it or not.

To add to those remarks, new players in any position in a major orchestra, are required to play a probationary period with the orchestra. In most "major" orchestras that is two years. At the end of that time, if you've played well and haven't been an @$$ to your fellow orchestra members, the tenure review comittee and Music Director will give you the opportunity to keep playing by offering you tenure.

And no, if we feel that we've got nothing to choose from except "lesser" players than the outgoing, we'll do a no-hire audition. It happens all the time, orchestra wide. You just don't read about it on Tubenet.

Honestly, I think there is a lot less voodoo and underhanded dealing going on at auditions than the Tubenet community would like you to think. Trust me, I make a living dealing with this stuff for a "major" orchestra...I'm telling you like it is.

^ Well, anyway...

There was this very fine trumpet player who soloed with the small regional orchestra I used to play in a few years back. She was first chair All-State and won the concerto competition, and so got to play her concerto with the orchestra. She auditioned for a spot with the orchestra the next year. I, along with several others, were out in the hallway just outside the auditorium as she auditioned. She sounded great, pretty much nailed everything and could play circles around at least one of the trumpet players in the orch. But guess what? She didn't even make the sub list The other trumpet players, including the ok-at-best-trumpeter are still in that orchestra. But several fine players left the orch. because of the @@@@@ music director/conductor. This particular music director has WAY too much power; like a dictator. You are blind if you don't think bullshit happens in orchestras...

Edit: .....Let's get back on the topic of BBb's in US. I think there are more players open to it now and use BBb's for specific works in orch.

tooba wrote:This particular music director has WAY too much power; like a dictator. You are blind if you don't think bullshit happens in orchestras...

Very possible

Tom wrote:Honestly, I think there is a lot less voodoo and underhanded dealing going on at auditions than the Tubenet community would like you to think. Trust me, I make a living dealing with this stuff for a "major" orchestra...I'm telling you like it is.

I think Voodoo is still popular in some states.


Back to the topic....

My main thing is TONE COLOR. I understand no one is going to give a rats behind what model and make horn an audtionee is playing, but what SOUND comes out of it. Kind of like how tenor trombonists have moved from little straight instruments to the large bore, single rotor valve trombones.

Yes, one could say that a player sounds "the same" on all tubas across the board, but if that were true, then there would be some magical do-it-all tuba that obviously everyone would buy (installed with a switch for brass quintet setting, an orchestra setting, a band setting, a solo setting......)

Obviously, a seasoned and well respected player can pick up an 'ol tuba they desire and try it in rehearsal, and if successful, maybe even in performance. A new kid on the block, however, might not have as much luck.

Sure, Meistersingers can be played on F tuba (the entire orchestral rep COULD be played on any tuba), but would have be wise to show up to an audition with a different horn than expected? That's all I am saying. Not if I am playing a Miraphone or a Meinl for the panel. Or my new PT-7.5 BBb with a contra bass trombone slide attachment (optional of course).

With orchestras, there are trends. With trends come instruments (which provide tone). The Vienna horns for example. If someone showed up with a Vienna style horn to a Berlin Philharmonic audition, I think they would not be considered because of the "sound" they are looking for. That is all I am stating.

As far as tubas go, yes you get different tone and sound from different tubas. Would this be enough to throw off a panel of judges because of what they are used to hearing, what the former player does or did, or what they have heard somewhere else? We would not have "is the F tuba good for Brahms 2, or is the YFB-822 a good Berlioz horn" if this mentality did not exist.

Thanks everyone for the replies, glad to see some information being thrown around!