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In the "finding the perfect Eb" thread below, a couple of folks brought up that they had better lower range facility with a 3+1 valve setup versus the in line setup, regardless of whether they were top action or side action. As a euphonium player who always preferred the 3+1 setup, I can certainly identify with that. With 4 in line valve setups, I struggle with the 2+4 and the 1+2+4 setup. Whenever I go for these combinations, my ring finger partially depresses valve #3. Maybe I have incredibly weak fingers, but how have you guys gotten around this? Any suggested exercises? I don't want to limit my options when I find my first Eb, and am considering the Yamaha 321, but right now I'm afraid to go for something like that as I think I won't have the facility I could with a 3+1. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

IMO the trouble with specific exercises is they might help a lot for some, little for others. I remembering learning to use 4 deliberately after most of high school ignoring the fact that it was there at all! Work out a practice game where you use 4 whenever possible ie no open F; no 2nd A , etc can be fun and you'll start using it more. PS nothing funnier than watching a 4V player pick up a 3V horn for the first time in a while...
Loren

The trouble with trying to strengthen just your pinky is that your 3rd and 4th finger are connected by the same connective tissue. I think it was Robert Schumann who tried to make a device to strengthen his pinky finger just to end up breaking it.

I don't know the answer outside of repetition and making sure you are using the proper springs. Does anybody have any info on this?

I think you should just start playing through whatever you practice or are about to perform. You don't use it that much anyway. I've never heard of a tuba player having problems with this( although I don't live in Great Britian). You seem to be making an obsticle of it instead of just doing it. How many tuba players have you been around that don't play four inline valves? And most of them also use their thumb for a fifth valve rotor.If all the rest of us can do it you can too. Give yourself some credit. Ed

Hi There,
In order to get around the problem of depressing the 3rd valve when using a 2-4 fingering, I've had the 4th valve button built up by about 1/2 inch or so, achieved by taking a piece of nylon rod and gluing it to the top of the valve cap. It's light enough that it doesn't interfere whatsoever with the valve movement, and, since I use curved fingers and fingertips on the valves, the 3rd finger doesn't push down the 3rd valve at all.
One still must do exercises like repetitious 2-4 to 2-3 valve combinations to strengthen the fingers, but by building up the 4th valve button you eliminate that pesky problem.
Sorry I don't have pics of my horns to show, but it's a cheap and easy fix.

Good luck!!

This might help a bit.

Yes, the ring finger and the pinky share the same tendon in the forearm on most people, making it more difficult to move these two fingers independently compared to the dexterity of the index finger and middle finger. My recommendation is to turn the whole hand to the right, which then causes the bones in the pinky to take the strain of depressing the 4th valve, leaving the tendon free to handle the third valve. Also, pivoting the hand this way moves the ring finger away from the third valve keeping it from accidently depressing the valve and causing issues.

I have seen this problem in a number of students, usually on piston valve instruments.

Try it. It might work for you.

Roger

When I had my 321 Euphonium I just played it as if it was a 3+1, with my left hand operating the fourth valve. Maybe you could try this, save you doing any excerises at all?

When I had my 321 Euphonium I just played it as if it was a 3+1, with my left hand operating the fourth valve. Maybe you could try this, save you doing any excerises at all?

Yes, I do this as well! Do you think you could do that with this horn?

http://kanstul.net/detail.php?pass_sear ... Background" target="_blank Brass

Please let me know!

EdFirth wrote:I think you should just start playing through whatever you practice or are about to perform.

I apologize in advance for what I am about to say. It's not personal. This is just a convenient trigger for "Rant #63".

This is the single most important misconception that leads inexorably to complete and abject failure.

You do not develop specific technical skills by "just playing through whatever you practice or are about to perform". This is performance material, and you will try to play it correctly "by whatever means necessary". This means that you will reach a certain level of competence IN SPITE OF your technique. You will ingrain many bad habits - and be re-inforced in this because you end up (practicing and performing) sounding "pretty good".

Instead, it it much more efficient and effective to ANALYZE your weaknesses and use SPECIFIC EXERCISES to correct the weakness. The goal of these exercises should NOT be to produce beautiful music. A beautiful sound, or sterling technique should NOT be part of your thinking when doing the exercises. The exercise should be as far removed from "practice and performance" as you can get. The goal should be to improve the machinery - and NOT to produce a "good enough" product.

Once the weakness has been eliminated, THEN you take it back to your practice and performance and use it to make music.

You should not be struggling with technique when you make music - and you should not try to make music when you are working on your technique. The goals, and the methods, are different. Combining them sends mixed messages to your brain, and your fingers. You end up with mediocre technique, and mediocre music.

For the specific problem of pinky weakness: I suggest finding (or "ask your teacher") particular exercises in Arban (or any
other method book) that specifically target that finger. Start with those you consider "knuckle-busters", and narrow it down to those that "bust" that particular knuckle. Then...play them, paying particular attention to "correct" form and technique in your fingers. I might not even bother to put the mouthpiece to your lips - just finger the notes. Repeat.
When this no longer busts your knuckles, consider actually playing along with your fingers.

Guitarists love these things:

I would probably recommend the Light or Medium to start with.
http://www.isokineticsinc.com/product/dm_grip-blk

MartyNeilan wrote:Guitarists love these things:

I would probably recommend the Light or Medium to start with.
http://www.isokineticsinc.com/product/dm_grip-blk

I looked at these last summer, my physiotherapist had some, but when i looked at getting my own they were stupidly expensive from what i remember.

euphdude wrote:

When I had my 321 Euphonium I just played it as if it was a 3+1, with my left hand operating the fourth valve. Maybe you could try this, save you doing any excerises at all?

Yes, I do this as well! Do you think you could do that with this horn?

http://kanstul.net/detail.php?pass_sear ... Background" target="_blank" target="_blank Brass

Please let me know!

And yes it should work, i cant see any reason why not. The only problem you may have is all the weight in your right hand which could be a problem when trying to finger tricky passages, but im sure you could find a way to put it into your left.

I did try a YEB321 for a short time, and I found it difficult to manage the 4th valve with the little finger of my right hand, whether the fat that I am actually left handed had any bearing, I don't know, adn probably think not.
as for excercises and devices to help strengthen the little finger, the cautionary note should come from the story of the composer Robert Schumann who used a device to try to strengthen and extend his little finger. He injured his hand to the extent that he could not play the piano, so some care should be taken with this.

Thanks for the replies so far, this is very helpful and has given me much to think about.

For those of you who play or who have played 4 valve top action horns, do you think it is reasonable to reach around and play the 4th valve with your left hand? This works fine on a euphonium like a Yamaha 321, but what about a much bigger instrument like the new Kanstul 66T or the Yamaha 321 EEb? Is this reasonable?

I tested the 3+1 style of activating the 4th valve on a Kanstul 66T. It works just fine. I think one experienced or comfortable with that way of operating the 4th valve would have no trouble. I personally like using my pinky better. Since I'm 5' 7", I think almost any size person could use the 3 + 1 style on this horn.