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My FAVORITE recordings of the VW and the Gregson are Fletch. The link to Fletcher playing Bach on the "How should a tuba player sound" thread got me thinking. How widely are the 981/982 tubas used in the US outside of the brass band scene? I realize a big part of the problem may be that the bell points the wrong way...
(And in defense of Fletch, he could have made a garden hose sound good, but that horn just fit him perfectly.)

MartyNeilan wrote:....I realize a big part of the problem may be that the bell points the wrong way...

the bell only points the wrong way if you drive on the wrong side of the road

I don't get the bell points the wrong way concern. If the bell points to the right when all the others point to the left, just sit on the other end of the section. If you are the section, such as in a quintet, then it is what it is.... So, what's the big deal?

opus37 wrote:I don't get the bell points the wrong way concern...So, what's the big deal?

The guy next to you with the funny looking trombone with all the extra plumbing, the two (or occasionally three) guys next to him with the more normal looking trombones, and the little guy up front aimlessly waving a stick...

MartyNeilan wrote:

opus37 wrote:I don't get the bell points the wrong way concern...So, what's the big deal?

The guy next to you with the funny looking trombone with all the extra plumbing, the two (or occasionally three) guys next to him with the more normal looking trombones, and the little guy up front aimlessly waving a stick...

Yes, they like to hear what's coming out. Better to have the bell facing them, instead of a wall/curtain/doorway/empty space.

Hey!
Come on now! left tilt or right tilt, WHO CARES? Once the sound of a bass instrument "blossoms" a blind man couldn't point to the source of the sound!!! Bass Tubas in EEb or F are a good addition to Concert Bands when paired with Contra-Bass Tubas. And a good EEb is capable of covering 99% of what you might use a 4/4 CC for!

Al

tubaforce wrote:Hey!
Come on now! left tilt or right tilt, WHO CARES? Once the sound of a bass instrument "blossoms" a blind man couldn't point to the source of the sound!!! Bass Tubas in EEb or F are a good addition to Concert Bands when paired with Contra-Bass Tubas. And a good EEb is capable of covering 99% of what you might use a 4/4 CC for!

Al

Exactly! That is precisely why brass band tuba sections sound so good. The different instruments compliment each other in the section to make up the who bass sound. The same should be with concert band sections. A good E-flat tuba CAN do anything a 4/4 CC does as well, not to mention it being the perfect horn for quintet and other chamber music ensembles, and solo repertoire!

Having an E-flat tuba to compliment your 6/4 CC gives you more options and overlap to your decision making on what type of sound you are after. They are a great pair!

The E-flat is still underrated in my opinion.

So the euphonium player mostly point to the right (a little), the trombones, we'll I guess those guys have their own problems. The bell is upright, so the lean is only slightly to the right and a right facing bell usually has top pistons. The top pistons allow for a more vertical position of the horn thus taking up less room. Helpful on a crowded stage. The guy with the little stick has more important things to worry about than the direction of a tuba bell (assuming he/she knows what their doing.) So to me, it just doesn't matter except you happen to feel more comfortable with side/front valves.

opus37 wrote:I don't get the bell points the wrong way concern. If the bell points to the right when all the others point to the left, just sit on the other end of the section. If you are the section, such as in a quintet, then it is what it is.... So, what's the big deal?

It becomes a big deal when the conductor tells you not to bring "that instrument into this orchestra ever again."

In free lance situations, you do not always have the choice of where to sit and choir directors don't like the tuba bell pointing at the choir mic.

I loved my 981 and 982's, even with the l.h. 4th valve, but I didn't need more than one or two complaints to stop playing it.

I think the tilt issue is the least of the issues.

I was asked this past year to sub in with a brass band that required me to use the 982 as opposed to my traditional 983 (4 valve inline set up).

The first major difference for me is the bell flare. The 982 has 19" and the 983 a 17". When I play the 983 there is a definite amount of focus that I feel is gained at the loss of losing some of the depth and ensemble color of the 982. (bore differences could be the cause but I don't have those numbers in front of me)

The second major difference is the stuffiness. If you've played the Besson brass band style horns you know they are much stuffier than what we in America consider a "good tuba." I think this contributes to the lack of 982/981 in America because there is a large learning curve for someone who has played American style (or German for that matter) tubas for so long.

The third major difference (and this ties in with stuffiness I'm sure) is the 3+1 set up of the valves. While it does offer a great deal more versatility in the low range, it's not traditional in America and takes a great deal of time to get used to (when moving at high speeds...which would be common for a Brass Band).

The bottom line of the thing I think is tradition. Why do Germans prefer rotors? Why do so many UK tubists use Eb horns? Why is the 6/4 York copy design so prevalent in the United States? Tradition. (pardon vast generalizations, I am accounting for all exceptions in my mind)

Whether we like or not, we don't really have definitive standards in the tuba world. We seek advice from whatever local professional (often times a symphony player) for advice on everything, including which tuba to buy. I imagine in the UK younger students might seek advice from prevalent brass band players as well as playing in them while growing up and being used to that style of horn. However, I don't think any teachers in the US would recommend to a student to purchase an Eb horn given that F/CC are the assumed "orchestral" horns.

opus37 wrote:If you are the section, such as in a quintet, then it is what it is.... So, what's the big deal?

In such environments, you are absolutely right, bell direction does not matter. I have been looking for a quintet-sextet / small-medium ensemble horn that can also tear up the VW and similar lit, but still have a fatter sounding bottom end than most F tubas and not fall to pieces when fortissimo is breached.
I got in touch with my buddy Al (uptightbass@yahoo.com" target="_blank) and will give one of their EEb clones a whirl. Great horn that plays in tune and fits my budget. I still have my BART earth mover for the big orchestra stuff

AndyCat wrote:[
Yes, they like to hear what's coming out. Better to have the bell facing them, instead of a wall/curtain/doorway/empty space.

it is difficult to know the difference between some of those things and a trombone section (or sometimes even a conductor)
I am interested in this question of "stuffiness" though.
Is it something heard by the listener or felt by the player?
is it really a function of the instrument, the mouthpiece or the player or any combination of the three
Are there any sound clips that could demonstrate it for me?

Rex Martin has been playing a Besson 981/982 in orchestral and solo settings for many years.

Somewhat recently, he added a Besson 3+1 F tuba to his arsenal. I believe that he plays this horn on his CD, "Live in Japan."

The stuffiness is a matter of feel, not of sound. There are many professionals who use this style tuba, if you want to listen to a sound clip I would find a recording of James Gourlay, Les Neish, or John Fletcher who all sound fantastic.

Or here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyViqSdAbJo" target="_blank

I first saw this youtube video while I was playing the 982 and was surprised to find "The Ride" played on this horn. The sound is great, but it's also very different from what a great deal of players here in America strive for (microphone recording aside) where we would all assume to pick up our C tubas and play this excerpt.

I know I've said stuffiness, but I suppose I should rephrase and say that there is more resistance. For me it felt like it required a greater velocity of air to accomodate.

BAtlas wrote: I know I've said stuffiness, but I suppose I should rephrase and say that there is more resistance.

That is how I would describe it after having played both configurations.

Although I don't play one any more (due to shoulder injury), there is not doubt the 3+1 compensated Eb such as the 981/982 is the most adaptable of tubas. Not the 'best' for everything, but can be used for everything from quintet to Wagner Ring and do a decent job.

Recently trialling the JinBao 700 Eb I am selling has reminded me how good this design of tuba is.