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I have played (and studied in a local conservatory) 4 years and all the time with the same tuba which I think is Melton 25 (from the conservatory). I quit my studies some time ago but I'm going to continue playing and now I'm about to buy my first tuba. The local market here is limited so I ordered a Jupiter JCB-780L (about 3300$) which is in my price range. When the instrument arrives, my teacher is going to check it so that I get a decent instrument etc.
What I'm wondering is the quality of the cheaper somewhere-else-in-the-asia-made instruments. Like the Jinbao JBBB 210L which I think is sold under different names and which costs about 1900$ in Germany (musicstore.de) and which I could easily and cheaply order.

I ordered a Jinbao F tuba from musicstore a few weeks ago and it's an o.k. instrument. I can't repeat the high praise it got elsewhere on this forum because a) It's my first F tuba ever so I don't know what I'm talking about and b) there are some minor issues with the horn, both on build quality and intonation. These are small enough to not pose a real problem.

It's a good enough instrument to make me anxious to go to Neptune's place this summer to check out the 1291 and CC clones he has on order and hopefully drive home with one of them. Based on the comments on tubenet those 2 seem like the best deal.

If you fancy the 210 I'd say go for it since musicstore.de has very good conditions for returning the instrument if you're not satisfied so there is very little risk involved. If you prefer another model you could wait until july and check out Wessex Tubas.

I am not going to keep/buy the Jupiter before a pro has tested and approved it. But the Jinbao prices are tempting and the musicstores conditions are good - I have bought lots of guitar gear from them - and returned too. One thing which speaks for the Jupiter is the service/maintenance, I'm not too sure if the local repairman would even look at something else than a household name.

charvette1000 wrote:...I'm not too sure if the local repairman would even look at something else than a household name...

Hmm, my repairman has been somewhat sceptical to asia made horns before actually have seen them, but after I showed him a couple of mine I think he changed his mind a bit. He gladly helps me with both the traditional stuff and these cheap ones, sometimes commenting about that they are better built than expected. However the quility control of the Chinese made instrument is not as high as the Japnese ones, yet. But it seems to have been better over time and if we all continue to demand quality then I think it will improve further so they will not risk to sell less...

I owned a Jinbao 210L for a while. It was a fine horn for the price. In fact, some days I miss it. Certainly didn't have any trouble getting my local repair guy to do whatever little maintenance needed doing.

I tried out a JinBao 210L at the Beijing Music Fair and found it a good BBb with a nice tone (as far as I could tell by the racket in the hall). I will be including in my next Wessex Tubas order

corbasse wrote:I ordered a Jinbao F tuba from musicstore a few weeks ago and it's an o.k. instrument. I can't repeat the high praise it got elsewhere on this forum because a) It's my first F tuba ever so I don't know what I'm talking about and b) there are some minor issues with the horn, both on build quality and intonation. These are small enough to not pose a real problem.

I ended up sending mine back for several reasons-
-Intonation was all over the place; this coming from a guy who's only owned old American Ebs. Not only did it have the sharp 4th (expected) it also had a flat 5th and sharp 3rd. Bb in the staff had to be played 62, Ab 51,... I don't remember what odd fingering I figured out for middle C.
-The 2nd partial was very odd. It felt and sounded like a resonant false tone, not at all like the notes above it. The pedal range was great. The low valve range wasn't that hot until about low F# and F (with all the valves and a pull).
-The sound of the horn really didn't do it for me. If everything else had been fine I would have stuck with it though.

The valves and slides were all fine and the horn played easily enough. There were just too many intonation and response problems for me. Though it -was- my first F tuba, I have owned 2 F contrabass trombones, a contrabass trumpet/cornet thing, and several small vintage Eb's over the years and have played those Eb's in a wide range of groups with no real problems. I'd like to try the 1291 clone and the contrabone again but I think I'm probably done with these horns. Oh well, I suppose I can always get a front valve King 2280 built up now...

Bob Kolada wrote: I ended up sending mine back for several reasons-
-Intonation was all over the place; this coming from a guy who's only owned old American Ebs. Not only did it have the sharp 4th (expected) it also had a flat 5th and sharp 3rd. Bb in the staff had to be played 62, Ab 51,... I don't remember what odd fingering I figured out for middle C.
-The 2nd partial was very odd. It felt and sounded like a resonant false tone, not at all like the notes above it. The pedal range was great. The low valve range wasn't that hot until about low F# and F (with all the valves and a pull).
-The sound of the horn really didn't do it for me. If everything else had been fine I would have stuck with it though.

Gotta ask - what mouthpiece were you using? Off the top of my head, I am guessing that you were using a mouthpiece way too big/deep for a medium sized German (style) F tuba.

Everything I had from contrabone to contrabass tuba, no difference. I don't find mouthpieces to affect intonation.

Bob,that experience reminds me of my first experience on a rotary f.now I don't look at a tuner.I just play...works for me...regarding the second Partial:that's the whole "low c" thing we talk about...

Bob Kolada wrote: I ended up sending mine back for several reasons-
-Intonation was all over the place; this coming from a guy who's only owned old American Ebs. Not only did it have the sharp 4th (expected) it also had a flat 5th and sharp 3rd. Bb in the staff had to be played 62, Ab 51,... I don't remember what odd fingering I figured out for middle C.
-The 2nd partial was very odd. It felt and sounded like a resonant false tone, not at all like the notes above it. The pedal range was great. The low valve range wasn't that hot until about low F# and F (with all the valves and a pull).
-The sound of the horn really didn't do it for me. If everything else had been fine I would have stuck with it though.

The valves and slides were all fine and the horn played easily enough. There were just too many intonation and response problems for me. Though it -was- my first F tuba, I have owned 2 F contrabass trombones, a contrabass trumpet/cornet thing, and several small vintage Eb's over the years and have played those Eb's in a wide range of groups with no real problems. I'd like to try the 1291 clone and the contrabone again but I think I'm probably done with these horns. Oh well, I suppose I can always get a front valve King 2280 built up now...

I still have to test the horn properly, I fooled around on it a few times but had to play too much difficult BBb stuff these weeks to put much time in it.

What I did notice right away was that H6 (middle c) is waaaaaaaay too low, I can't lip it even close to where it should be and I am/used to be a professional natural horn player Luckily it's high enough in the register to offer a plethora of alternative fingerings.
There seem to be other intonation quirks but my first impression is that these can be dealt with.
In terms of build quality the stays and braces are a bit clunky. I also saw sloppy solder jobs (no big deal) but more importantly some of the more complexly curved tubing coming out of the valves was clearly coerced into place a bit too enthusiastically. Slides and valves are fine but the 2nd valve slide needs a little bit of force to come out.

MartyNeilan wrote: Gotta ask - what mouthpiece were you using? Off the top of my head, I am guessing that you were using a mouthpiece way too big/deep for a medium sized German (style) F tuba.

I did notice in my foolings around that the 2 mouthpieces I had available at the time had a profoundly different effect on the intonation issues. (middle C was waaaay too low on both though) I definitely want to give the horn a fighting chance with a proper F mouthpiece. Any recommendations?

MikeMason wrote:Bob,that experience reminds me of my first experience on a rotary f.now I don't look at a tuner.I just play...works for me...regarding the second Partial:that's the whole "low c" thing we talk about...

No, the C was okish. F to Db are all messed up. Every rotary F I've played has been much, much better than the Jin Bao F I had.

corbasse wrote:

MartyNeilan wrote: Gotta ask - what mouthpiece were you using? Off the top of my head, I am guessing that you were using a mouthpiece way too big/deep for a medium sized German (style) F tuba.

I did notice in my foolings around that the 2 mouthpieces I had available at the time had a profoundly different effect on the intonation issues. (middle C was waaaay too low on both though) I definitely want to give the horn a fighting chance with a proper F mouthpiece. Any recommendations?

Mirafone C4, Rudy Meinl RM9, G&W Baer F, Sellmansberger Solo #1 or #2 (aka Blokepiece) have all worked well on rotary F tubas for me to produce a characteristic sound.

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corbasse wrote: In terms of build quality the stays and braces are a bit clunky. I also saw sloppy solder jobs (no big deal) but more importantly some of the more complexly curved tubing coming out of the valves was clearly coerced into place .

I noticed that on my 210 as well. I figure that sort of thing is what we get for the price difference.

Regarding the 210: this is an excellant horn and I would recommend speaking to Neptune about getting one. Intonation is very good, if you like the Hirsch sound then you will like this.

As far as the products from JinBao go, here are my thoughts. To start with, these are not 10,000.00 dollar instruments..... just because they are inexpensive does not mean they are cheap.

Build quality, they have come a long way over the past few years and if your a skeptic that has never played one then you need to give it a try. the build quality is great considering how much you are paying for one. There could be inprovements to the instruments on the buffing prior to the finish but still not bad at all inmy opinion. I certainly could not do a better job. One thing you have to think about whenever you have purchased a horn be it new or used, did you ever do anything to that instrument to improve it. Heck, I know someone who has a new thor CC, guess what, the valves stick and they need to be looked at. I had the same issue when I bought a new 2165. Doent let price dictate quality.

Ratings on a 1 to 10 scale includes sound, intonation and quality:

The 410 CC clone, amazing to say the least in all catagories, 10 out of 10.

The 200 BBb german wrap, this is a copy of the B&S stencil which is a smaller copy of the Alex 163 BBb, score 10 out of 10.

The 210, if you like the Hirschbrunner rot BBb, then you will love this. 9 out of 10.

The 600 f tuba, great sound, build quality is fantastic, great upper and unreal low regisiter for a rotary valve F tuba. The down side is that you will have to work on the intonation as the F at the top of the staff rides high. One thing I tell everyone about these tubas is that a main tunning trigger will solve any intonation issues. I score this a 7 out of 10. Bydlo, this is the best high g# I have ever played.

The 700 Eb, here is another 10.

The 1150 Compensating euph, all I can say is oh my god another 10.

The 831 Bass bone, copy of the 830 yamaha, yes another 10

the 810 tenor, smae thing here another yamaha copy and yes another 10.

The 050 trumpet, are you kidding me, this has monel valves for less than $500.00

I am waiting on getting the Alex 103 french horn copy any day now, and if this looks half as good as it plays I will be very happy as well as any F-horn player will be to buy it.
Comments about those who are skeptics on horns coming out of china and to those repairman who say stay away. I have heard it all from "you can't get parts" to "they will not last". My response to that is this. How many junk tubas are still servicable that were built 50 years ago? I have played plenty. Keep one thing in mind, this is metal not plastic. What is it that won't last??? As far as parts go, if you take a look at the 186 clone or the F tuba and compare it with any miraphone you will see the following: Same braces, same rod ends, same springs, same ferrules and standard srews that are on most tubas arriving out of Germany.Are they made in Germany, or, are they made in China for Germany???????

mctuba1 wrote:Regarding the 210: this is an excellant horn and I would recommend speaking to Neptune about getting one. Intonation is very good, if you like the Hirsch sound then you will like this.

This is a model that will be in my next order from JinBao.

As far as quality is concerned, I have meeting scheduled with the Production Chief at JinBao during my factory visit, so will raise issues I read about here and have been mentioned to me by Tom and Al. I want to be selling good quality tubas and it is in everyone's interest that any issues are sorted. My impressions to date are that some real good instruments now come out of China, but with a little more attention to finishing and checking they could be better.

BTW This is an area where the Beijing company of Wisemann come out tops. I found the finish on their tubas exemplary, better than most European manufacturers and was very impressed to see signed quality check list in case and a computer intonation report. However, they are more expensive than JinBao - the compensated euphonium 3-times the price.

If the Jupiter I ordered is not decent (tuning, mechanisms etc.) according to my professional friend, then I'll check out the Jinbao (and buy a bit more expensive baritone horn for my son with the remaining money...).

mctuba1 wrote:..the build quality is great considering how much you are paying for one..

Considering the price I'm certainly willing to accept this level of finish. For my needs and budget I'm not prepared to pay $3,000 extra just to have pretty braces and clean soldering. Things that need to move do so well, those that are not supposed to, don't. It looks like a tuba and sounds like one, if I can play it more or less in tune everybody will be happy.

The things I listed were little defects I noticed and I think people should be aware of them when they order one. If they expect "perfect" build quality because of some of the raving reviews here they'll only be disappointed. Build quality is certainly "good enough" but don't expect much more than that. Yet.

It's like the new car I just bought. It's the cheapest, ugliest big family car you can get over here. I've heard complaints about it from some people, mainly that the finish is too plastic-y and the ride is noisy. Well what do you expect from a dirt cheap 7-seater? Leather seats, walnut dashboard and a 4l V8 engine?
The break down statistics are very good, the parts are all tried and tested designs and QC is rigorously watched over by the factory owner Renault.

The 600 f tuba, great sound, build quality is fantastic, great upper and unreal low regisiter for a rotary valve F tuba. The down side is that you will have to work on the intonation as the F at the top of the staff rides high.

The low register is certainly a blast, and from what I've read here in the past it's quite normal for an F tuba to have intonation quirks. I can deal with that, I played 200 year old horns for a living.

I am waiting on getting the Alex 103 french horn copy any day now, and if this looks half as good as it plays I will be very happy as well as any F-horn player will be to buy it.

I've seen that 103 clone on the jinbao site, I'd love to try one out. If the consistency is better than the original you have a definite winner on your hands