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Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:11 pm
by 123go
Is it just me or does it bother anyone else that people keep referring to Jinbao as "those Chinese horns", "those Asian horns", or even worse "those communist Chinese horns"? Obviously there is more than one Asian instrument maker - can you say Yamaha? There is also obviously more than one Chinese instrument maker. So why the generalization? I hate to say it, but this sounds a bit derogatory to those of Asian descent. After all, do people refer to Conn instruments as "those Capitalist American horns"?
-BTW - this is not a reference to the quality of Chinese products in any way. You're more than welcome to your opinion of Jinbao instruments (which seems to be a surprisingly polar issue!) or of other specific Chinese products, but rather a comment on the attitude that leads to this kind of sweeping generalization. When we generalize people in this way, and yes this comes from generalizing people not instruments, it takes us to an ugly place.
--No I do not sell these instruments, but I do have some very good Asian friends. If you want to call that an ulterior motive, knock yourself out.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:25 pm
by cjk
123go wrote:Is it just me or does it bother anyone else that people keep referring to Jinbao as "those Chinese horns", "those Asian horns", or even worse "those communist Chinese horns"? Obviously there is more than one Asian instrument maker - can you say Yamaha? There is also obviously more than one Chinese instrument maker. So why the generalization? I hate to say it, but this sounds a bit derogatory to those of Asian descent. After all, do people refer to Conn instruments as "those Capitalist American horns"?
-BTW - this is not a reference to the quality of Chinese products in any way. You're more than welcome to your opinion of Jinbao instruments (which seems to be a surprisingly polar issue!) or of other specific Chinese products, but rather a comment on the attitude that leads to this kind of sweeping generalization. When we generalize people in this way, and yes this comes from generalizing people not instruments, it takes us to an ugly place.
--No I do not sell these instruments, but I do have some very good Asian friends. If you want to call that an ulterior motive, knock yourself out.
+1
Americans also seem to generalize "Europe" as one place just like this thread is making "Asia" sound like one place.
Asia and Europe are continents, not countries.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:34 pm
by tubaforce
Hi!
Yes. Jupiter and Yamaha are both Asian! We are just used to them as existing makers! I refer to Miraphones, B&S, and others as "German", and Besson as "English"! Yes, there are several makers of Tubas in "Communist" China other than JinBao! Until, recently the only ones worth a plugged nickel that Americans knew about were JinBao's! And the fact we know the origin(s) of these Tubas is largely due to this forum, and the TubaNews forum(are they still virus-ridden?). Otherwise folks might still beleive the claims of Laab's and others...
Al
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:41 pm
by charvette1000
Any idea where the Jupiters are manufactured?
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:45 pm
by bort
You're trying to make a few points... yes, you're right that "Asian" isn't the right word if you're talking about Chinese things.
But I see no problem with "those Chinese tubas" for a few reasons:
-- It's a 1-to-many (or few-to-many) relationship between what factory the tuba comes from in China to what branding it ends up with over here. People say that M&M, BBC, Dillon, Schiller, etc. (I might have the brands wrong, but you get the idea) are really all the same tubas from the same factory. I wouldn't call those all Jin Bao tubas, and think it makes sense to talk about them in a group as Chinese tubas.
-- Maybe someone needs to talk about only the Chinese tubas, and not the Japanese or Taiwanese (or other country of origin) tubas.
-- We already talk about German tubas, American tubas, etc... so it only makes sense.
Also, I've never once heard "those communist Chinese tubas." That's just ridiculous. I've only seen "communist" used when talking about older German, Russian, or eastern european tubas, as a means to historically identify the time period (and conditions) of manufacture. Plus, at least in America, we all know what China's government is like, and clearly ignore it...or at least don't care enough to make a stink out of it, as long as they keep making stuff cheaper than we can make it ourselves.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:55 pm
by Lingon
charvette1000 wrote:Any idea where the Jupiters are manufactured?
Taiwan. You can find some important years and facts on the KHS site
http://world.khsmusic.com/front/bin/ptd ... gory=61388
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:08 pm
by 123go
bort wrote:You're trying to make a few points... yes, you're right that "Asian" isn't the right word if you're talking about Chinese things.
But I see no problem with "those Chinese tubas" for a few reasons:
-- It's a 1-to-many (or few-to-many) relationship between what factory the tuba comes from in China to what branding it ends up with over here. People say that M&M, BBC, Dillon, Schiller, etc. (I might have the brands wrong, but you get the idea) are really all the same tubas from the same factory. I wouldn't call those all Jin Bao tubas, and think it makes sense to talk about them in a group as Chinese tubas.
-- Maybe someone needs to talk about only the Chinese tubas, and not the Japanese or Taiwanese (or other country of origin) tubas.
-- We already talk about German tubas, American tubas, etc... so it only makes sense.
Also, I've never once heard "those communist Chinese tubas." That's just ridiculous. I've only seen "communist" used when talking about older German, Russian, or eastern european tubas, as a means to historically identify the time period (and conditions) of manufacture. Plus, at least in America, we all know what China's government is like, and clearly ignore it...or at least don't care enough to make a stink out of it, as long as they keep making stuff cheaper than we can make it ourselves.
They have indeed been referred to as "those communist Chinese tubas" on this forum, and yes it is completely ridiculous and inflammatory. When you refer to Jinbao as "those Chinese horns" it sounds as if you're referring to all instruments made by Chinese companies, rather than specifically Jinbao. Why not just call them Jinbao? That is the name of the company after all.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that we have pointed out that these horns are from China. The issue for me is when they are referenced in a derogatory context and then called "those Chinese tubas" or "those Asian tubas" rather than Jinbao tubas.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:12 pm
by imperialbari
So Jupiter hasn’t outsourced production to Neptune, Mars, or Pluto yet?
K
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:20 pm
by bort
123go wrote:When you refer to Jinbao as "those Chinese horns" it sounds as if you're referring to all instruments made by Chinese companies, rather than specifically Jinbao. Why not just call them Jinbao? That is the name of the company after all.
That's kind of the problem... Jin Bao might be the name of the company, but once the tubas are imported, that name never shows up. On a Yamaha, we call it a Yamaha because it says Yamaha.
All of the Chinese-made tubas I've seen just say the names of their importers. Maybe it's made by Jin Bao tuba. Maybe not. A lot of Chinese instrument owners (maybe even TubeNet folks!) probably have no clue.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:29 pm
by Lingon
bort wrote:
That's kind of the problem... Jin Bao might be the name of the company, but once the tubas are imported, that name never shows up. On a Yamaha, we call it a Yamaha because it says Yamaha.
Hmm, reminds me of when I got the horn, made by Yamaha, with the text Holton engraved. Holton, that asian horn.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:41 pm
by imperialbari
Yamaha during some period produced in the US. All parts came from Japan, but the assembly work done in the US was calculated to represent 71% of the combined production costs.
Klaus
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:45 pm
by 123go
bort wrote:123go wrote:When you refer to Jinbao as "those Chinese horns" it sounds as if you're referring to all instruments made by Chinese companies, rather than specifically Jinbao. Why not just call them Jinbao? That is the name of the company after all.
That's kind of the problem... Jin Bao might be the name of the company, but once the tubas are imported, that name never shows up. On a Yamaha, we call it a Yamaha because it says Yamaha.
All of the Chinese-made tubas I've seen just say the names of their importers. Maybe it's made by Jin Bao tuba. Maybe not. A lot of Chinese instrument owners (maybe even TubeNet folks!) probably have no clue.
I completely agree, but for me that's a whole different rant. I really wish they would stop doing that. These horns should to be referred to as what they are, whether you want to call them "clones" or not. When you stick the distributor's name on it, it cheapens the brand and leads to confusion.
But once again, consider the implications of making derogatory comments about a specific manufacturer and referring to an entire country or continent instead of just that brand. For example, let's say you live in Italy. You recently decided you hate Chevy cars. So now you start saying "those American cars" are of very low quality.......so now you've referenced several different car manufacturers, and all the countries in South America, Central America, and North America, including the U.S., Canada, Mexico, etc. and you've said they're all of poor quality and in some cases made implications about all those people.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:54 pm
by imperialbari
A whole lot of the story about American band instruments is about distributors putting their names on the bell. Even Conn, who were not ashame of themselves (and had no reason for being that), would engrave the end-owners name on the bell (we discussed an Eb sousaphone engraved with the name of a fire brigade band some months ago).
Klaus
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:23 pm
by Dan Schultz
I don't have any problem with the origin of manufacture of any music instrument as long as the quality represents a descent value for the dollar and they have some sort of parts support.
What I DO have a problem with is all the deception that goes on to try to put a product across as something that it isn't. The most flagrant violation (in my opinion) is Jim Laabs Music with the bold-face lie that their products having something to do with 'Frankfort' and 'Germany'. Right out of the box... that sort of sleazy advertising puts a bad light on the Chinese instruments.
Just call it Chinese, Brazilian, German, Thai, Japanese, whatever.... and forget about it. The consumer will sort out what's good and what's not.
Seems to me that the importers are afraid of telling the truth. I guess it just doesn't matter if you can buy a replacement piston or not.... without having to plate it up and fit in from scratch.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:54 pm
by 123go
TubaTinker wrote:What I DO have a problem with is all the deception that goes on to try to put a product across as something that it isn't. The most flagrant violation (in my opinion) is Jim Laabs Music with the bold-face lie that their products having something to do with 'Frankfort' and 'Germany'. Right out of the box... that sort of sleazy advertising puts a bad light on the Chinese instruments.
I agree! But it seems to me this puts a bad light on Jim Laabs rather than Jinbao, and especially not ALL instruments from China.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:11 pm
by pgym
While KHS is headquartered in Taiwan, a not-insignificant percentage of their manufacturing base is located in Tianjin, China.
bort wrote:Also, I've never once heard "those communist Chinese tubas." That's just ridiculous. I've only seen "communist" used when talking about older German, Russian, or eastern european tubas, as a means to historically identify the time period (and conditions) of manufacture.
There is at least one regular poster who consistently refers to Chinese-made goods pejoratively as "communist Chinese":
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44706" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30070" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44720&start=24&p=38 ... ow#p386228" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42221&start=12&p=36 ... ow#p366510" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30014&p=262187&view=show#p262187" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=34966&start=12&p=30 ... ow#p308248" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29290&start=12&p=25 ... ow#p255497" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31376&p=274957&view=show#p274957" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29494&p=257787&view=show#p257787" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18792&start=12&p=15 ... ow#p155291" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39629&p=346242&view=show#p346242" target="_blank" target="_blank
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=41570&p=362651&view=show#p362651" target="_blank" target="_blank
You can decide whether it's a sign of immaturity or closet racism.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:24 pm
by Lingon
pgym wrote:...While KHS is headquartered in Taiwan, a not-insignificant percentage of their manufacturing base is located in Tianjin, China...
Sorry, I should have added that. And that is like many other brands. A colleague got a nice Schagerl branded trumpet that is said to be made in Taiwan but who knows if it is there or mainland China somewhere...
Now what is happening in other parts of Asia like India, Vietnamn and so on? There were some Eb flat tubas showing up on ebay earlier that I think was from India. Anyone know anything?
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:14 pm
by cjk
pgym wrote:
You can decide whether it's a sign of immaturity or closet racism.
or just a statement of fact by a person with a political mind.
It does seem like you worked
awful hard on your post trying to call somebody names without coming out and doing it.
China DOES have a communist government so I really don't see why anyone is even bothered by someone calling China "Communist China".
IBTL.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:41 pm
by TubaBobH
I have no problem with manufacturers in China producing tubas. From everything I have read on TubeNet, many of them seem to be a good value. As-a-matter-of-fact, I may purchase one some year. That having been said, how is calling a communist country "communist" a sign of "closet racism"? Communism over the last century has has imposed itself over many diverse races and ethnicities, not just the Chinese. It is a form of government. A form that many/most citizens of western democracies do not endorse. Although I do agree that using the somewhat pejorative phrase "those communist Chinese tubas" adds nothing of value to the discourse in this, or any, tuba forum, implying that the use of this phrase is "racist" is just plain silly and ill informed.
Re: Jinbao, a.k.a. "those Asian horns"
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:58 pm
by Wyvern
123go wrote:TubaTinker wrote:What I DO have a problem with is all the deception that goes on to try to put a product across as something that it isn't. The most flagrant violation (in my opinion) is Jim Laabs Music with the bold-face lie that their products having something to do with 'Frankfort' and 'Germany'. Right out of the box... that sort of sleazy advertising puts a bad light on the Chinese instruments.
I agree! But it seems to me this puts a bad light on Jim Laabs rather than Jinbao, and especially not ALL instruments from China.
+1 That is almost what I was going to say.
For using the term 'Chinese tubas', I think a lot of the problem is knowing what actual company does manufacturer a particular model as apparently the same one can turn up in multiple catalogues. Even us importing do not always know the exact source. For example only through my recent tour has it come to light that the 'Chinese' travel tuba is actually made by Huashen which most people had never heard of although it in fact the oldest brass instrument factory in China having just celebrated 40 years.
It is wrong to generalise about Chinese instruments being bad, or good as they vary tremendously in standard. What Al, Tom and myself are trying to do is select the best models to sell and avoid the bad.
Jonathan "now returned to England"