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I'm a very amateur player starting to get back into playing after a long (15 year) hiatus. As part of that, I'm trying to work on the low range (below, say, G1). My question is: How do you tune those notes on your horn? How can you be "sure" they're in tune?

I started out using my (20 year old?) Korg DT-1 tuner but discovered it seemed useless below G1 or so. So I figured "Aha! Get a newer tuner." Now I seem to have the same problem with the Korg CA-40, even with a contact mic. It either can't seem to "lock on" to the low notes, or else it seems in general to feel that they're all really sharp. Now I'll grant you, they COULD be sharp. But they don't sound all that sharp to me.

I'm having a similar problem with an old Amati oval "euphonium" I've acquired (just for kicks). It plays in tune well in the middle and upper registers, but when I get down in the area below C2, the tuner seems to start to lose it. It doesn't think everything is sharp, but it seems to have trouble deciding what the note is and how far off center.

As a check, I tried the CA-40 on my wife's piano. Everything worked fine until I got down below C2, and pretty soon it wasn't registering notes at all. (I was not holding the tuner inside over the string, but the sound was pretty loud.)

So what's up with these tuners? The CA-40 claims "Wide Detection Range from A0-C8".

Are the tuners getting confused by various harmonics being generated by the lower notes? Certainly the euph seems to have an abundance of such "noise" in its low range.

But more important, how can I train my ear and ensure I play in tune? I was hoping the tuner would do that for me. It works well in the middle and upper registers. How do I accomplish the same result in the lower register?

Hi!
Unfortunately, you're going to need a better tuner, and the notes are probably sharp! My Korg Tunes the low "B" string on my upright and electric Basses, but there is a slight delayed reaction... An old strobo-conn with a good mike works well, but I've been thinking about one of the new "virtual" strobes, around $200.00! For your Tuba, I would suggest a contact mike plugged into whatever unit you try... I double alot on upright bass, standing at the end of a pretty good Tuba section in a good Symphonic Band, and there is a noticeable portamento effect the lower they attempt to play! I just pull my bow across that low "B" string with my 1st. finger down, and I'm there, so I hear the settling in up close and personal!
I have eliminated much of my portamento on Tuba by practicing low tones against my slow to react Korg, playing the pitch 8va higher, then concentrating on the lower octave! I also practice slurring from low C(or BBb) down and up, starting with a 1/2 step, and extending the slur down a 1/2 step 'till I can't get a decent note! I think EE-AW as I descend, as that's what helped me as a student, and usually helps the odd student I teach...

Welcome back!
Al

oops!

First of all: Welcome on TubeNet!

A recent thread touched upon some aspects relevant to understand your problems:

viewtopic.php?p=386197#p386197

Tuners tend to go for the overtone/partial with the highest acoustical energy. Even if they tell the right note name they may actually react to a partial one or more octaves above the nominal note played. When tuners appear being confused about pitch and even about note name, then because the note played is not entirely stable, so that there will be a more or less random oscillation between various octaves, not lining up in pitch, which in turn emit the strongest acoustical energy. The oscillation may even pass other partials than octaves emitting the strongest energy.

The term focused has a tendency to be individually perceived. For me it tells about the sound of a note, where all partials are well in tune, and no odd partial (#7, # 9, #11, #13, #14, or #15) is sticking out loudly.

One method recommended, when I was somewhat younger in a previous millennium, was about sitting near a well tuned piano (to which ones instrument had been tuned), and then pressing the right pedal and play a given note until the piano resonated over as much of its range as possible. Due to the well tempered tuning of the piano, the method is not entirely precise for the just tuning often strived for my brass players, but it certainly trains ones awareness and ones control.

A somewhat similar method often is recommended today: playing over a drone. You can buy CD’s with drone notes, you can establish them via computers, or you can find ways to weigh down single keys or chords on electronic keyboards.

Only scratching the surface.

Klaus

Thanks. There seem to be some good ideas here. Short of getting a much better (and expensive) tuner (unless I could pick up an old strobotuner), I like the idea of using a generated tone and listening for the beats. There are other advantages to that as well.

I've had excellent luck with a little Korg CA-1 - @$15. So much so, in fact, I have several so I can keep one in each instrument case and not worry about it. I've used everything from gimmick tuners, to pedal tuners for electric guitar/bass, to even an expensive rack mount Korg tuner, to clip-ons. I always come back to the Korg CA-1. It just has it all: reliability, portability, accuracy. I use them on everything: tubas, double bass, electric guitar & bass, other horns, acoustic guitars, to see where a piano really is on a given day to match it, etc.

And, BTW, if you're just coming back to brass, it is likely your lower register is sharp. It takes awhile to again used to having the jaw relaxed, the mouth thinking the big "Oh" with the back of the tongue dropped, and the "big easy air" to get the low register to speak. Hang in there. Welcome back to low brass!

iiipopes wrote: And, BTW, if you're just coming back to brass, it is likely your lower register is sharp. It takes awhile to again used to having the jaw relaxed, the mouth thinking the big "Oh" with the back of the tongue dropped, and the "big easy air" to get the low register to speak. Hang in there. Welcome back to low brass!

This is definitely the case. I've also been screwing around with different mouthpieces, and that is not conducive to uniformity. Finally just recently settled on a PT-89 even though it is not the best for the really low range. But with practice I think it will work fine down there as well.

It's a lot easier to tune low notes by ear than with a tuner, if another instrument or sound source is playing the same note an octave higher. Listen and lock in. The "Tuning CD" is good for that purpose, but more expensive than necessary. A cheap electric keyboard can work too.

Hi ghmerrill

Warning - opinionated rave ahead.

I also returned to playing several years ago after a very long break. I play in a number of amateur groups where intonation is a universal problem.

I have observed a number of players staring at tuners trying to improve their tuning - every one of them has absolutely no ear for tuning at all, in some cases pretty much destroying the sound of the whole group with their poor intonation.

I don't own a tuner at all. I get my computer to play long notes (drones) for me and play along listening to the harmony between the drone and whatever note I'm playing.

There are numerous articles and discussion threads on this on the internet if you want to explore further.

I'm sorry to sound negative but you will not train your ear or improve you intonation at all by staring at a tuner.
I've heard it argued that a tuner has the opposite effect.

Thinking back on my own recent experience it may even be better to concentrate on sound at the expense of tuning for a couple of months and let something like an overall sharp low register fix it's self over time.

Feel free to ask about my experiences returning to playing. I worked through a lot of problems I didn't expect. You may have a different journey.

Regards

Gerard

termite wrote:Warning - opinionated rave ahead.

I am more than happy to buy into this ideology since I in fact agree with it (though I don't think it follows that a tuner is without value). I don't in fact like the idea of learning a pitch by eyeballing the tuner since I think that to a large degree it trains eye/mouth coordination more than anything else.

I've found descriptions of the Tuning CD. It doesn't seem outrageously expensive and now is available for only $10 ($8.99 on Amazon) by download. The Amazon listing is a bit hilarious since it lists each individual "song" (no lyrics, continuous one-note melody) available for $0.99.

My only concern with it is that the tones seem to span only one octave, and one not particularly suited to the tuba. Yes, I know that, strictly speaking, for tuning purposes the octave of the sound doesn't matter -- or shouldn't matter if one does not consider the hearing capabilities of the listener, possible degradation of hearing of certain frequencies, etc. But as a practical matter it would be nice to have a reference tone a bit closer to what the actual target is. In addition, I find some of those pitches to be pretty severely irritating to listen to (evidence, I suppose, that at least I can still hear them).

Is there an alternative to this -- other than hunting up a keyboard and using it as a tone generator?

Setting up a Finale sheet with an ascending chromatic scale from C2 through B2 with each note sounding 16 seconds and 4 seconds rest between notes is easy. However finding a good sound for the midi version is harder, and the result will vary with midi player and with sound systems anyway.

The problem I have with the sounds of the finale application is that I can hear the sampled loop starting over and over. And that tiny deviation may be confused with beats between notes being out of tune. I may try to continue the project and make the files available via my download project.

The smartest output might be a sine wave for each pitch, but I don’t know whether there is a midi-# for the sine wave.

Klaus

Bloke wrote,"When I was a teenager, I developed (so-called) "perfect pitch" when playing the guitar. I could tune a guitar (as this was something that I did very repetitively) at A=440 and well-tempered (the very best compromise tuning for various chords in various positions) for my particular guitar. A "catch" to this was that I was always buying (expensive) new strings (Savarez brand) because as their condition decayed, pitch "context clues" would diminish. Over the years (though I don't tune many guitars anymore) I've realized that I have not "forgotten" these pitches, and can still do it"


Sounds like your mind memorized at least 1 pitch, Joe! I tune my guitars to themselves without fretting or tapping, but sometimes miss 440 one way or the other. Once I've heard a reference note, I'm good for hours, though! You'd think Americans wouldn't be able to forget A-440, or at least the lower octave we're constantly exposed to. That octave represented by the 60 hz buzz of many appliances! I love those Savarez strings too, the ones with the "wound" treble(s)! Stores carry the "normal" Savarez's, but not the "P"? series!

Al

I have uploaded the first reference octave to my Yahoo based free download project. There is a music sheet in .pdf format (much better resolution than in the above .jpg sample). And a MIDI file playing the notes with tuba sound. I tested the sound in Safari and in RealPlayer. In both cases the sound was more even than in Finale. Probably because Finale has sampled sound and the other two applications have synthetic sounds.

The files are here:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... %26%20MP3/

Klaus

PS: The address has been changed, as the inclusion of .mp3 increased the need for space very much. A .mid file is 1K or 2K, but takes a computer to play back. The .mp3 files a 3.5MB+ each and can be burned onto a CD. The project now has single note drones in 6 octaves, C1-B1 through C6-B6. Furthermore 15 permutations of stacked octave drones. Your preference for drone format will depend on you ears and on your instrument. The obvious choice should be playing in unison with a single note drone, but as hinted that may not be the most efficient choice for everybody.

imperialbari wrote:The smartest output might be a sine wave for each pitch, but I don’t know whether there is a midi-# for the sine wave.
Klaus

I respectfully disagree that sine wave is the best waveform. As pitch descends, sensitivity to change in pitch decreases. Without overtones, the lowest notes can become indistinct. For example, the English organ builder Compton even had the audacity on some of his 32' stops to put only one pipe to sound for the lowest 4 or 5 notes, irrespective of pitch.

A wave form that incorporates the 2nd, 3rd & 4th harmonics, at the least, would be preferable, as especially these harmonics reinforce the fundamental helping the ear not only tune the fundamental pitch, but to develop as a foundation to the higher pitched instruments. But higher harmonics start including odd harmonics that are not as helpful. I would suggest something approaching a ramp or sawtooth, as it has even harmonics, but can be filtered to eliminate the higher odd harmonics. In any event, avoid a square wave or anything that might overdrive the system and clip the output, as this introduces the plethora of higher odd harmonics that are detrimental to developing the ear for tuning.

Vielen dank, Klaus.

I will see how this works for me as soon as I can beat my way through the process of getting access to it through Yahoo.

I have tried the midi drones by means of a single earphone (I don’t remember the term, but there only is one phone on the bracket) plugged into my laptop. I had a bit of a problem getting the drone loud enough, so I have added the drones in mp3 format also.

There are four fully chromatic octaves available, the 3 lower ones with trombone sound, the 4th with horn sound:
C1-B1
C2-B2
C3-B3
C4-B4

More will be added.

For players reading bass clef or playing by ear, these octaves starting on a concert C are pretty obvious. Maybe less so for players of transposing instrument. Hence reference music sheets in just about all relevant transpositions for a given range will eventually be available. So far only the C3-B3 octave is fully covered with 5 clefs and transpositions in G, C, F, Bb, and Eb.

My download groups have no discussions. The only postings are my own rare ones presenting new stuff. The groups take approved membership (please identify yourself by name and instrument plus school or band if applicable). You don’t need a Yahoo mail address. Any address goes, only I do not approve obscene addresses or addresses from countries known for funny web activities.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:There are four fully chromatic octaves available, the 3 lower ones with trombone sound, the 4th with horn sound:
C1-B1
C2-B2
C3-B3
C4-B4

More will be added.

This is more what I'm talking about. Now, brass tonality in general has a prominent 5th harmonic, but if it's in context, that's okay, because it teaches us to tune under a major 3rd for a good solid chord, and is definitely more like what most tuba players are expected to coordinate with in tuning. For example, think about the break strain of every march ever written: tubas, trombones & euphs, all expected to play the break strain as one single large low brass instrument.

Klaus:

I just wanted to report that I have downloaded the tone files (in MP3) format and burned a disc in a few minutes using Windows Media Player. I then put it in the rather cheap "secondary" stereo system I have immediately available and the results are fantastic!! The speakers aren't great (we are renovating our house and have the good system packed up somewhere), but the tones are clear and can be made loud without any problem. The tuner shows them to be (of course) perfectly on pitch.

I think I'll get some decent headphone(s) somewhere since the earbuds I have don't work so well on those tones and my digital pair for use on the computer won't connect to the stereo or MP3 player.

This is great!

-- Gary

Glad the sounds worked for you.

I have been aware about the existence of commercial drone CD’s from discussions on the various music discussions lists that I subscribe to, but I never owned one.

Your OP made me think I could easily make such drone schemes also, so I started thinking and trying.

As bad pitch is heard as beats (a rhythmic function telling the magnitude of the pitch discrepancy), I would forfeit much of the purpose, if not all of it, if I added some sort of clicks to the drones. However my own testing soon revealed that I always think in rhythm even through long notes, and that I needed a rhythm reference. My present compromise is about letting each of the 16-beats long notes precede by 4 snare beats.

I have several CD/DVD players, but I don’t use them very much, as I prefer computers as my medium. So I NEVER have burned a CD. And as the MP3 files became 2000 or 4000 times larger than the midi files, I took the MP3 files away from my download project (they didn’t have the snare beats anyway). Later tonight I will see if I can make MP3 versions of the several, 20 or so, midi files holding various octaves and permutations of octaves. These MP3’s will have to be stored in another section of my project where there is more space left. If you use your computer as playback medium the midi files are only 1K or 2K. I play them off the web myself via my laptop. The address is up this thread.

Klaus

I have updated the presentation of the drone project here

viewtopic.php?p=387381#p387381


Klaus