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Greetings all. I am looking to purchase a tuba. Unfortunately I have not played in about 10 years or so (my old instrument was destroyed by an airline). Unfortunately, I only have a budget of around $2800. I am taking a trip to Jim Laabs on Monday to take a look at their Schiller horns as these pretty much seem to be the best option available to me.

I would prefer four piston valves (front action would probably be better, as I am somewhat short at 5'6") and I have been particularly interested in these two: (but I am also open to suggestions as well)

http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... d_443.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... _5726.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I plan on play testing them both (as much as I can, as I can probably only play a few notes at the moment) and plan on getting which ever sounds the best, though I'm probably 90% sure I will end up with the 4/4 model.

Has anyone had any experience with these horns? I am sure this has been asked numerous times, but I can't seem to find anything definitive on Schiller tubas. I know these are essentially Chinese copies but they seem to be the best option given my limited funding. About the only other choice I have been able to find in used instruments are YBB 105's and friends which really do not interest me much.

I am also bringing a friend with me to look at their Euphoniums. He purchased a Wurzbach and has since returned it. The quality on that horn was simply horrible (though in fairness he did get it for $400) and is making me very nervous on purchasing a Chinese-made instrument.

I have been able to find a lot of positive feedback regarding the Schiller Elite Euphonium but seemingly nothing regarding their tubas. Any advice or experiences with these horns is most appreciated.

Thank you.

Paul

Tubajason wrote:Check out the For Sale section on TubeNet, also if you can't find anything good about an instrument, there might be a reason for it.

Well the problem is I can't find anything bad either. I have only seen a lot of nice reviews about their elite euphonium so it seems that it is at least possible that they can make quality instruments; just nothing about tubas specifically.

Yup... your question has been 'around the block' more than a few times. If one of these horns is all that your budget will allow.... you are doing the right thing to go play one before spending your money.

Have fun and let us know how your visit was.

If you want to see the JBBB-210 in action before you go, go to youtube and search for "tempest tuba". There's a company in Texas that sells this horn as the Tempest Prague tuba, and they've got two videos of that particular horn being played.

I hope this helps.

Aardvark892 wrote:If you want to see the JBBB-210 in action before you go, go to youtube and search for "tempest tuba". There's a company in Texas that sells this horn as the Tempest Prague tuba, and they've got two videos of that particular horn being played.

I hope this helps.

This helps a lot, thank you very much. That horn sounds decent enough and it appears almost identical to the one I was looking at (except having rotary valves). It definitely eases my mind about making the trip there (13 hour drive). Thanks again!

------------just a final appeal to consider a better-quality used horn? Better quality + better resale potential will probably make you happier than the opposite. Just suggesting! Good luck.

My advice, which is not specific to any store, tuba brand, or person...

Go to try, and remember it's totally okay if you walk out empty handed because it wasn't right for you.

You should add to your list the AH 5 valve BBb--it is a bigger horn, but you may like it and is in your price range (owned it previously and loved it--currently own the rotary valve Schiller BBb).

Good luck and please let us know what you decided.

JJ

Assuming they carry the models you're considering, I suspect you'll get a better price and better service from the TubeNet sponsors--in alphabetical order, Big Bottom Music, Mack Brass, and Tuba MM--who also sell Jin Bao tubas. Big Bottom Music's and Mack Brass' price on the compensating euph, for example, is almost $200 lower than Jim Laab's.

And neither Al nor Tom will try to feed you a pile of BS about their "German Heritage" and "American Engineering" like Jim Laabs does.

pgym wrote:Assuming they carry the models you're considering, I suspect you'll get a better price and better service from the TubeNet sponsors--in alphabetical order, Big Bottom Music, Mack Brass, and Tuba MM--who also sell Jin Bao tubas. Big Bottom Music's and Mack Brass' price on the compensating euph, for example, is almost $200 lower than Jim Laab's.

And neither Al nor Tom will try to feed you a pile of BS about their "German Heritage" and "American Engineering" like Jim Laabs does.

Having purchased THREE TUBAS from Jim Laabs over the years I can tell you that I have never had problem and they have never "fed me" anything--and their prices are very competitive (for example they are usually $700 to $1200 cheaper than Tuba MM). They answered all my questions and the tubas arrived on or before time in perfect condition. They are good people to work with and have no reservations recommending then whatsoever.

JJ

IMHO, a thirteen hour drive to try out the horn is quite arduous. When you go; please be sure to take a tuner with you and check the horn as much as possible.

A used Cerveny, Miraphone, Meinl Weston, might easily be within your budget; possibly a new OR used Cerveny from WWBW, Dillon Music.

Just my opinion. Probably not well thought out.

Thank you all for the advice. I will definitely try out everything I can while I am there including the 5 valve model. I don't really care how much I spend as long as I stay in budget and plan on walking away with which ever sounds best (or with nothing if they are all total crap).

To those who are suggesting their rotary horns: At this moment however, I am avoiding any rotary valves. My previous horn was a Reynolds (I have no idea what the model was), but it was a Miraphone clone and was around $3000 which I got from Tuba World in Detroit. It was a decent instrument, but the linking system was horrendous. They would get loose after around 1/2 hour of playing and make really annoying clanking sounds until they could be readjusted (and then about 1/2 hour later it would continue). I feel it is wise to steer clear of rotary valves on horns in this lower price range. In addition, I played a 5/4 Conn with piston valves and I very much preferred them over those that were on my rotary horn.

I will definitely post which I get as well as some kind of review. Once again, thanks all!

If you look you'll find two threads that are reviews of the Schiller Tubas here on TubeNet. One for an F model and one for a BBb JBB-210 model. Both speak highly of the horns. A link to my thread for the BBb 4 valve rotory is below. The horns are well made and mine has a tone quality I'm very happy with.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43772

Bring all of your mouthpieces with you. Different models speak better with different mouthpieces. I'd would look into the Elite model first as it looks to have a better configuration for accessing the 1st and 3rd slides.

Here is another link to another thread with pictures of the Jin Bao Factor Store in China.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44758&hilit=SChiller+f+tuba

Make sure your chops are rested so you can have a good long testing session.
Have fun.

swyn wrote: To those who are suggesting their rotary horns: At this moment however, I am avoiding any rotary valves. My previous horn was a Reynolds (I have no idea what the model was), but it was a Miraphone clone and was around $3000 which I got from Tuba World in Detroit. It was a decent instrument, but the linking system was horrendous. They would get loose after around 1/2 hour of playing and make really annoying clanking sounds until they could be readjusted (and then about 1/2 hour later it would continue).

I believe the "original" Reynolds only built piston tubas. I would not let one bad experience with old worn-out rotary valves cause me to totally write off rotary valves. The Chinese seem to have been doing good job on rotors the last year or two.
Also, there are some on the board who are not crazy about JL. I bought a very decent Schiller CC from them in late 2009, and the horn was damaged in shipping to the point even the wheels were sheared off the case. JL provided excellent customer service.

MartyNeilan wrote:...... I would not let one bad experience with old worn-out rotary valves cause me to totally write off rotary valves. ....

Ditto. Rotary valves are very easy to maintain and seldom cause problems unless it's due to physical damage. The most common cause of noise rotors is improper assembly of the back bearing plates. Even the old 'S-bar' linkage can be tightened so it is noise-free. Some of the plastic ball ends from the mid-70's and 80's leave something to be desired but they can be easily replaced by more robust hardware.

I play piston horns quite a bit but find the rotary ones to be more forgiving. Especially during Volksfest. Bratwurst, pretzel, and popcorn fragments seem to 'whistle' straight through!

I'm surprised nobody has yet recommended looking for a used Conn 4J or 5J. These fit your bill exactly: 4 piston valves, compact for your smaller body type, easy to play, well in tune, pretty consistent build quality as far as I know, and can usually be had for under $2800.

the elephant wrote:

glangfur wrote:I'm surprised nobody has yet recommended looking for a used Conn 4J or 5J. These fit your bill exactly: 4 piston valves, compact for your smaller body type, easy to play, well in tune, pretty consistent build quality as far as I know, and can usually be had for under $2800.

+1

Excellent, smaller horns with four front pistons and rugged build. AND much higher resale value. You will probably get what you paid if you sell, even years later. The Chinese stuff still has a very steep depreciation. A used Conn will play better and has already depreciated. Parts are easy to locate in most cases. The horns generally play very well without regard to price, but especially so for what you pay for one used and in great shape. Just make sure to open up the piston casings to check the valve plating.

A couple things need to be mentioned as well--the 4J/5J that's in really good performing condition is going to be well over 3K--If you do find one under 3k it usually is not going to be pretty sight to behold and will probably have a problem or two to be dealt with.

JJ

Here's what I wrote some time ago about Schiller/Laabs.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39703&p=346804&hili ... er#p346804" target="_blank

In sum, I have no problem with Chinese tubas and enjoyed the "Schiller" I had for a while (bought from its first owner). But I have no use for Laabs, because of their deceitful marketing. I'm awaiting the arrival of another Jinbao even now. But I made a point of buying it from Al Triplett and specifically not from Laabs, not least because it costs less from Al, but also because he leaves the Jinbao imprint on it and doesn't make up some damn-fool story about a non-existent German instrument maker ("Gustav Schiller") or a non-existent connection with Frankfurt or anyplace else in Germany. In other words, he tells the plain truth.

DP wrote:why not this nice-looking German BBflat for 2200 ?

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=44245

f.w.i.w. these Weltklang "stencils" are from a proven manufacturer (B&S or Cerveny) and overall very good tubas, this one looks to be in fine shape and is being offered by a tubenet poster

f.w.i.w. Weltklangs are made by B&S. I'm thinking that Weltklang might have actually been B&S' lower priced brand, not so much a stencil.

But yeah, those B&S made BBflats are quite good.

the elephant wrote: I sold an excellent one for $2400, and that is what I usually see here. They do not cost that much, JJ. $3000 is a LOT for one of these.

Agree totally--but this site is an exception, not the rule. There are 2 Conn 5J's on ebay right now with a asking price well over 3k (which is what I usually see there and on Craigslist for those models in great condition). Yes of course if you wait for it and have cash in hand, eventually you can get it at a decent price---but not many people have that kind of patience.

As for Jim Laabs' "Schiller" fiction, I don't like it either but ALOT of US companies do the same thing (for example, M&M USA stamped on their Chinese horns) and we all know why. Lets not single out Laabs for something thats long been an American business tradition.

JJ