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Sage advice from LJV - as usual.

Good story (story NOT meant in any negative way!)! I would consider taking payments from people I know (whom I can easily hound if necessary ) or from ''known people'' who probably wouldn't need to buy whatever silly horn I'm selling on payments.

Sounds like better advice for parents and grandparents!

My parents bought my first horn. I had to "make payments" by getting "paid" to do various things, including practice. They "paid" me $7 an hour (good money in 1998), and I would fill out a log with what I did, whether it be practice or work on the farm, and how long I did it. I forget how long it took me to work it off, but it was a great learning experience. And now I get paid to play tuba, so it worked out.

Also make sure to get one that can be resold 10 years down the road when you realize a career in performance is one big ol' lol.

bloke wrote:

LJV wrote:Dear College Students,

If you are wanting to purchase a tuba (or an additional tuba) save your money and buy it yourself. By this I mean don't ask your parent(s) to foot the bill. You will gain much by the experience. You will learn self-reliance and pride of accomplishment.

You will also NOT be at the mercy/whim of an other human being for this purchase of equipment that you may value greatly.

Get a job(s). Also, don't ask your grandparents (who probably love you and want to spoil you/piss off your parents). They may be well intentioned, but will complicate matters exponentially.

BTW, be prepared to PAY IN FULL. No one will take payments and release the tuba without payment in full unless they are morons.

Case in point:

I "sold" a tuba to a young college student and their father.

Good player, seems like a nice kid. Father was superficially supportive. I can spot these parents a mile away having worked with kids for a long time. (He has that typical swagger, looking down his nose at "musicians."). When I first me him (at a rehearsal, not my home), he tried to impress upon me that he would be doing me a favor by taking this tuba off my hands and I should be thankful.

I was impressed. Fully.

Kid tries tuba. Loves it. Father offers 50% of asking price. I packed up horn. Said good bye. Returned to rehearsal.

Father calls me (clearly after doing some research) and agrees to purchase and wants to give a deposit to "hold the tuba." I explained I do not accept deposits to hold horns. I will only sell the horn (removing it from market) to him and his child with the understanding that his deposit is a NONREFUNDABLE first payment. He agrees. Argues that he wants the horn now and will pay balance "next week when he can get to the bank." I decline. He agrees to my terms, buys the tuba, (>>>pay attention here tuba sellers<<<) and reluctantly SIGNS PURCHASE AGREEMENT (prepared by a trumpet-playing attorney* friend prepared especially for "Dad.").

A couple of weeks go by with no word from buyer.

Turns out that "parent" and child have falling out. This abusive, overbearing father brow beat this poor kid during the entire process. I imagine the kid finally broke and told him to "F O."

Long story short. Father didn't get his money back. Threats ensued (with which I had some fun messing with the guy).

Kid calls me (along with his mom, who is no longer married to his father) @ two months later still looking for a tuba of his own.

I find him a somewhat more modest (but still rockin') tuba (I didn't make a dime. I considered it a public service!) that he sounds great on. I "apply" Dad's deposit/payment to new tuba (My only requirement in doing so was that I insisted that they not tell that @@@@@ of a "father." They both laughed and agreed. I didn't want him taking any credit and hold it over this kid's head. ) and off he goes happy as a clam with tuba and Mom in tow.

Again, troops, buy your own tubas. The self respect and respect you may earn from your parents will be invaluable.

*Yes, I know, "trumpet player AND an attorney" you say? He's a good egg...

I just wanted to quote this to make sure it stays up. I wouldn't change a thing in LJV's post.

My Dad nearly always tried to put conditions and demands on me when I asked him for help buying stuff (and not "game systems" or other crap - stuff that TODAY would be considered "necessities" [pfft] bike/music lessons/mouthpiece/special clothes for this-or-that/etc.). That's why (beginning around age 12) I figured out how to buy my own stuff. A friend of mine recalls a similar attitude from his own Dad; When he asked his Dad for money beyond food/clothing/shelter, his Dad would almost always respond, "What's goin' on, son?...You sound just like a dope fiend." My friend is now worth quite a few million dollars. fwiw, the same friend has been considering sending his kid off to college. I'm gently reminding him that (though he attended college) HIS Dad didn't send HIM off to college. He's thanking me for reminding him.

bloke "whose Dad did NOT send me off to college either"

AMEN my tuba brethren!

J "Jerry sent Jerry to college and paid for his own tubas" J

LJV wrote:I knew this wouldn't be a popular thread with the TubeNet crowd... Pay your own way!?! NO WAY,DUDE!!!

How you figure, sports fan? Looks like another "pile on Larr" thread.

Great advice LJV.

And I agree the hounding is the worst part. You try to be nice, facilitate a sale, and while people mean well, it can be tough to get everyone on page that you expect to be paid quickly. I believe a man's word is an oath, but few people seem to believe that in today society. Very sad.

I've been pretty lucky buying/selling tubas through the board here. I've sold like 4(?) and bought 2, and ALL of those transactions have been with professional/military players. And good grief, it is SO nice to deal with straight-up, practical people. Send me money, I send you tuba. No money, no tuba.

It comes down to the fact that private sales aren't for everyone, and some parents are more nervous about it than others. There's a small leap of faith involved on both sides, and I get that. There is clearly NO problem at all with going to a music store like BBC, Dillon's, etc. You might pay a little more money, but for the service and comfort of dealing with a business and not an individual, it can make sense for a lot of folks. Plus, then you can use plastic to buy it if you need to!

LJV wrote:

bort wrote:There is clearly NO problem at all with going to a music store like BBC, Dillon's, etc.

You're the perfect customer!

I'll relate a little very recent experience with a music store...

I was interested in a tuba I saw on one of our esteemed seller's websites. There aren't many of this model around, so I had it shipped to me.

Seller told me the horn was ready to go, didn't need any prep.

$400.00 round trip*.

Tuba looked pretty clean. On the outside... In reality, the tuba was CAKED on the inside. I had to clean the tuba and actually scrape out the gunk and crust before I could assess the way it played.

The previous owner also apparently thought he could just add O rings to the already in place felts to improve the "feel" of the valves. I had to scope the valves and when I did, they were 3mm off up AND down.



There was no leap of faith here with this "sale" of mine, so not 100% sure were your post fits in. They had the tuba in hand and played it before "buying." The point was that this father was an abusive jerk, didn't respect his kid in the slightest**, and thought could pull a fast one on me.

Buyer and seller beware.


*I'm currently "banned" by my wife from buying anything from this seller. The tuba left the ring from hell in her bath tuba! Not to mention the $400 hit for nothing.
**I have a son of my own and I tell you this cat is lucky I didn't kick him square in the *** for treating his son the way he did.

Ooh Ooh.. do tell! Was this a 2250 at WWBW? I played one up there that was completely full of pitch or something. I asked them to clean it for me, but their guy was at lunch... Needless to say, I haven't purchased a 2250 yet, and I'm getting my JBL fixed after thinking long and hard about selling it.

I appreciated this post so much I wanted to send it back to the top in case anyone missed it who needs to see it - especially this time of year. Awesome! I think I might frame it and put it in my office.....



- Christopher (who tried using a "handle" like several other tubenetters but was accused of trying to be sneaky - by someone using a handle) Lair

Christopher Lair wrote:I appreciated this post so much I wanted to send it back to the top in case anyone missed it who needs to see it - especially this time of year. Awesome! I think I might frame it and put it in my office.....



- Christopher (who tried using a "handle" like several other tubenetters but was accused of trying to be sneaky - by someone using a handle) Lair

I don't understand this post.

I was simply expressing appreciation for the substance of LJV's original post, especially this part:

LJV wrote:Dear College Students,

If you are wanting to purchase a tuba (or an additional tuba) save your money and buy it yourself. By this I mean don't ask your parent(s) to foot the bill. You will gain much by the experience. You will learn self-reliance and pride of accomplishment.

You will also NOT be at the mercy/whim of an other human being for this purchase of equipment that you may value greatly.

I wanted to "bump" it back to the top in case anyone missed it. To put it mildly, I'm always very uncomfortable when I hear of parents taking out a loan (or worse) to buy an instrument for a very young student. I usually counsel patience, but the draw of the shiny new flavor-of-the-month is often too irresistible.

I hope that clears it up for you k001k47.

Well, it looked like it was getting sticky there, but then it got a little slippery, and now who knows?

I don't understand this post.

Donn wrote:Well, it looked like it was getting sticky there, but then it got a little slippery, and now who knows?

I don't understand this post.

I understand your misunderstanding, and apologize in advance for misunderstanding your post.

bloke wrote:Just to clarify, my friend and I both went to college, but attended on our own merit (scholarships), on-campus duties (etc.), and own resources (earnings). Our Dads did not fund our college experiences at all.

What an old-fashioned approach. I went much the same route because a couple of weeks before I left for (a very expensive) college, my parents caved to bankruptcy and we all fled the state a few hours ahead of the sheriff. I went through the very expensive college with scholarships, loans (repaid in full), and working 20 hrs/week for four years and full time during all vacations. Taking time off for "spring break" -- or even thinking of finding the money for that -- was not something that could even be considered. Same for graduate school. But times have changed.

Over the past ten years I was very involved in managing an undergraduate internship program, and last year I taught a combined undergraduate/graduate course at a large state university. I have been astounded at the number of students who have no idea of why they are in college and certainly shouldn't be there. (Various colleagues agree that approximately 30% of the undergraduate student body should not be there. But college is now "available to everyone".) And then they stay there for five or six years!! They get double majors, or two degrees, or take semesters abroad, or just hang around another year or two for the "experience", or ... What they don't do is get the degree done and get out. Generally all this is paid for by the parents. The students also have absolutely no idea of what they will do when they get out, and have no idea of what jobs might be available or how to pursue them. The university is of no help in these respects.

These are, it is sad to say, the American students. By and large, the foreign students are a different story in terms of their determination and focus; but often they are being supported by grants from one place or another. The universities like this because it is a great source of revenue. But I can see that I'm starting to rant.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, and don't buy into what I see as some of the underlying emotion and bitterness. But I do agree that, in general when you are dealing with contemporary college students, you are dealing with a population that is immature, ignorant of the real world (well, they're getting most of their impressions of this from their faculty rather than paying attention to the lives their parents are trying to live), often self-indulgent, and not inclined to consider consequences of their actions (or lack of action). So you need to form your expectations accordingly. That has been a bit difficult for me. It is especially troublesome because some of them are wonderful, have their heads together, actually have goals, and are doing everything they can to reach them. But that's getting to be more unusual with time. So perhaps "guidelines" of the sort offered here are useful and appropriate, though they might be voiced in a somewhat more neutral tone.

Doc wrote:The sad part is that the likelihood of them affording $8K euphoniums will be greater if they are in careers that use busniess management or nursing degrees instead of euphonium performance degrees, especially since neither of those degree paths inherently discourages pursuit of excellence in euphonium performance.

But, Doc...don't you know? You can qualify your purchase as an "educational need" and finance it with government-backed student loans. There need not be any consideration of whether or not a student can "afford" one.

I would like to make a recommendation; you can finance a horn through a bank. You can do this in a similar fashion to a car loan.

This way the seller gets a full payment upfront and the seller doesn't have to worry about chasing anybody down for money.

Also, if you are investing in an expensive Tuba, make sure to put a writer in your home owners/renters insurance in case it is stolen or damaged in a fire/weather etc.

(writers...that's the proper insurance terminology right???)

BRSousa wrote:I would like to make a recommendation; you can finance a horn through a bank. You can do this in a similar fashion to a car loan.

This way the seller gets a full payment upfront and the seller doesn't have to worry about chasing anybody down for money.

Also, if you are investing in an expensive Tuba, make sure to put a writer in your home owners/renters insurance in case it is stolen or damaged in a fire/weather etc.

(writers...that's the proper insurance terminology right???)

The "problem" with bank financing is that you're expected to start making payments immediatly (with interest). You can put off paying back your student loans until you're no longer a student in 4, 5, 6 (and so on) years. This is why conventional loans to buy instruments are so rare. Besides you need good credit to get the loan and some collateral that the bank can go after if you default. College kids don't usually have much, if any, of either of those things.

I know (and went to school with) LOTS of people that bought all manner of instruments on student loans, graduated, and then immedialy sold off their stables so that they could make the loan payments.

I would NEVER, no way, no how, EVER sell a tuba to anyone without full payment up front. It doesn't matter if I "know you" or not. I'm not a bank. I don't finance. You pay me in full and make your financing arrangements elsewhere.

Oh, the insurance word you're after is "rider."

bloke wrote:I'll sell brand-new Chinese rotary tubas for $2000 dn.

Bummer.


I could do zero down, $199 per month for 36 months, but can't come up with that kind of money for a down payment.

That would cost me, what...over $7k???