TubeNet

I've already learned the BBb fingerings, and I'm interested in learning a different type. I really want to learn the one that would benefit me the most throughout my career, because I'm certain now that I'm going to continue tuba playing long after college. I know that after many people reach the professional level, they may have a few different tubas for all different situations. Since I don't have near enough money to buy multiple instruments, (My mom bought me my King 2341!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH MOM!!!! That made me one happy tuba player!) I Would need to pick one for now. I know that my King would be more than enough to get me through high school, but I would like to get a head start and go ahead and learn another type. So here are the things I know, and below that are some of the factors that will come in to play as I make a decision about not just the type of tuba, but also the exact model.

F:
It is easier to play higher notes, but it lacks the lower register. It is used to add a tenor sound to the tuba section, and is used in orchestral settings, in which tubas are usually solo instruments. Used for solo and ensemble environments and smaller groups. It's is easier to switch to F when starting on CC.

Eb:
Same as the F, but is used in symphonic settings like the BBb, but just not for the same purpose, as it is often used to add a tenor sound. When starting on the BBb horn, it is easiest to switch to Eb.

CC:
A must have for college, because many directors still think of BBb as lower quality and will only let you use a CC, and it's mainly used for large settings and orchestral purposes. It's easier for orchestral music because most orchestrial music is in a sharp key and the fingering changes are easier.

BBb:
It's the largest of the 4 types, it's like the CC in the fact that it's used for large settings, but unlike the CC, the BBb is used in concert and symphonic settings because the music is generally in a flat key. Depending on the quality of the horn and the player's skill, it has the largest, most 3- Dimensional and rich sound of the four.

So I want to know down the road, which type would be most beneficial to have learned. (Other than BBb because I already know that one, and I'm trying to expand my knowledge!)
Here are the main determining factors in my quest to find the right tuba:

I'm possibly going to join a large youth orchestra. So basically a symphony orchestra. I think CC would be best for this because it is orchestral music which is easier on a CC or F, but it's large and the F probably wouldn't cut it.

The music I play for auditions, band, and solos usually doesn't have any really low notes. (A below the staff through B above the staff is the usual range.) So F's and Eb's lack of the lower register probably wouldn't be a huge issue except for long tones or in super boring band music when I play it down an octave during rehearsal, but I play a BBb at school.

My large symphony needs are covered by my King 2341, but I have some trouble on solos and auditions with the high notes and an F or Eb would help that.

I don't necessarily care how hard it would be to learn a new type of tuba if it will be beneficial in my career.

I was advised to avoid Rot. valve tubas because the keys bounce after they return to their normal positions. If there is a Rotary valve tuba that eliminates this or something you can do to fix it, like a kit, technique, D.I.Y method, or something a shop does, then Rotaries would be fine.

I don't have a body that's suited for the tuba. I'm on the small side at about 5'1"

I have around 3 liters of lung capacity.

I don't have great sound quality partially due to my small size, but I'm still growing.

I have already learned to open my throat. I drop my jaw as much as I physically can, lower my tongue, and open the exit between my teeth as much as I can while still buzzing.

I exercise my diaphragm and keep my abdomen firm when I play just as my EX-Band Director instructed me, but I find it hard to keep a consistent sound and air steam while doing this. I don't know, maybe I'm just flexing my abs!

I have tiny hands, so I cant play tubas with large spacing between the valves or keys that efficiently. Even on my King 2341, the space between the thumb loop and the valves is so large for me that I can even put my fingers on the valves correctly!! Instead of my fingertips being placed on the tops of the finger buttons with my fingers curved, my fingers go straight out with my fingertips being flat on the buttons. My whole fingerprint is touching the button instead of just the very ends.

If any of the types would help me improve or mask this, that would be a big +++!

So basically, which type would best fit my needs and be most beneficial down the road? And if there are any tubas you recommend please tell me.

People with more lore than I have will chime in, so I won't say much.

My amateur thought is to enjoy that 2341. Become the best player you can be on it. I doubt it's holding you back. It's a great instrument.

When you get to college that will be plenty of time to think about what is next.

If you've absolutely got to have a second tuba now, I'd go for one of the basses rather than another contra.

I'm guessing that was maybe your mom who was here late last year looking for advice? Anyway a mom did that and ended up with a 2341. That was a really enjoyable thread to watch develop.

Umm...

Try them all out. Try not to put up "barriers" about what keyed instruments can do. F tuba doesn't make the high register "easier". More accessible? Possibly...but you definitely need the chops to play high no matter what instrument you play (a mouthpiece that matches the horn doesn't hurt either!)

Eb tubas are definitely used in orchestras...look up Patrick Harrild and Wes Jacobs.

The whole BBb and CC thing is a load of crap. You can play anything on both. If you're doing a lot of soloing, than I may suggest a bass tuba, but if you're just laying down the foundation either BBb or CC will work. It's all mental. If YOU think BBb will hold you back, it will. A step is not much of a difference.

Just think about what your concerns are (hey, you got a nice horn already!) and focus on woodsheddin' until your chops fall off. THAT is the real key!

@talleyrand Thank you. And I don't have to get another, but I was thinking an F or Eb would be better for orchestra stuff and I was going to just save up for one. Trust me, I enjoy my King!!!! It's not holding me back at all. I know my mom was on here and was asking about the King 2341 around that time so yeah, that was probably her!!!!!

There's not real truth to it being easier to add F to C or Eb to Bb over the other way around.
I say keep what you got now (excellent horn well suited to a lot of situations, also, YOU ALREADY HAVE IT ) and check out smallish/4/4 bass tubas. Though the price is going up the best deal out there new still is the Cerveny 653/5- rotary but so easy to play, big fat sound, great low register, good intonation,... You might also look for used 321 Eb's.

A euphonium might also be a idea- it'll work on those super-high-gotta-nail-them-anyway parts, will give you more playing opportunities, and does an ok job covering cimbasso and contrabone parts in orchestra (it'll sure sound a lot better than you trying to PLAY a contrabone! ). A nice euph will also be cheaper than a nice bass tuba.

Fingerings schmingerings. Like it's so much easier to play a C tuba in the key of B natural over a Bb tuba.

Good luck dude!

@UTSAtuba thank you also. i'll consider all of that!

@Bob Kolada I'm definitely keeping my king, NO doubt about it!!! and thank you for your input.

Get a teacher and dump these "facts" from your bank of knowledge.

i have a teacher

Lots of issues with your original post:

1. You did not indicate your age, gender, or location. There are many handy online calculators, (http://www.csgnetwork.com/heightpredictcalc.html), that will allow you to estimate your adult height. If you're 14 years old now, but will most likely be 6'2" when fully grown, advice regarding particular tubas better-suited for those with small hands will not be useful down the road.

2. I do not like piston valves because they tend to "clank" when played. This will not stop me from purchasing or using one. First, there are ways around this problem. Second, it is a very superficial problem. Similarly, to the extent rotors bounce back while playing, it is generally negligible or non-existent. Since rotary tubas seem better suited for small hands, including this fact seems perverse.

3. Forget what you've learned about your abdomen. The diaphragm contracts downward to aid in defecation, tensing the abdomen, or childbirth. Neither the abdomen or diaphragm have any useful role in playing while you are physically playing. If anything, the excess tension may be hurting your playing.

4. Please discuss these things with your teacher. If you already have, is your teacher a band director, a professional tuba player, a college student, or an amateur?

well I thought that the diaphragm pulled down on the lungs to push out the air. and hes a band director

TinyTubist97 wrote:well I thought that the diaphragm pulled down on the lungs to push out the air. and hes a band director

It is an easy mistake to make and one that people made for centuries. You probably should seek a professional tubist, or at least a collegiate tuba major, to be your teacher. Not that I don't know many band directors well-qualified to teach tuba, just that someone well-versed in current thinking is more likely to be able to help you.

Don't even ask about the bad habits I was taught by my band directors.

Different keys of tuba are not used for reasons of technique (e.g. what range is easiest or how loud can X play) but because of different ideas of how a "tuba" ought to sound.

You can find the "German" concept of sound in many rotary F and B-flat tubas (Alexander tubas are sometimes considered the epitome of this sound). The ideal of their playing is to function as the lowest member of the trombones or horns. These instruments are built to have a slightly "brassy" sound which some call very direct.
The "British" concept comes from their tradition of brass bands and this evolved into the upright, compensation E-flat and B-flat tubas like some Besson, for example. Quite a different sound than the "German" tuba.
My best guess that the "American" B-flat tuba tradition (such as your King 2341) would have evolved from bands influenced by the "British" sound, while the American C tuba is a different story. To the best of my knowledge when Leopold Stokowski, who had trained as an organist, was the music director of the Philadelphia Symphony he desired a more "cloudy" and "organ-like" sound from the then-tubist Philip Donatelli. Stokowski commission the now famous "York" C tuba (s?) for Donatelli to help him achieve this sound. Arnold Jacobs (and subsequently Gene Pokorny) performed on this horn and with it made the signature "American" tuba sound that has influenced the design of most piston valve C tubas made since then.

You can play more or less anything you want on any key of tuba (if you practice!). Make the choice for a new key of tuba based on the kind of sound you'd aspire to and the type of tuba tradition you'd like to take part in. The best way to educate such a choice would be to find players from these styles (and surely there are more - what "school" does Oystein Baddsvik come from?), listen to them, and find out what you like.
Assuming you are an American tubist and plan on studying the American tuba tradition and eventually performing in American orchestras you'd be best off with a C tuba. Not because it's the best or you can't play the repertoire just as well on any other key of tuba but because that is the sort of sound that an American orchestra aspires to (i.e. that conductors are looking for).

Hope this helps!

Thank you all! I was told to use the largest mouthpiece possible so I got a Perantucci PT-50. I also have a vincent bach, the mouthpiece that came with my king and a jupiter 24aw. I like using bigger mouthpieces for music that needs a richer sound and pep band stuff on the sousaphone. and i use my king mouthpiece for higher playing because it feels more natural with that. and I use my bach for general playing.

I was told to use the largest mouthpiece possible so I got a Perantucci PT-50.

You were told wrong. Use the mouthpiece that works best for you and your horn. FWIW, the PT-50 is bigger than optimal for me. I can play it OK, but I get more control, dynamic range, and fatness with the slightly smaller PT-36. For me, the PT-36 is right on the upper end of what works with my face and horn. I can go bigger, but the sound gets smaller and less resonant. When everything is right, there is a sort of sympathetic feedback (if that makes any sense) that will happen between your face, mouthpiece, and horn. That's when you're in the groove and cookin' with gas.

Please, please, PLEASE forget everything you were ever taught about "keeping your stomach firm", "using your diaphragm" and (my personal favorite), "opening your throat." Tight abdomen muscles are not conducive to good brass playing, and consciously opening one's throat is impossible; the throat is at its most open when relaxed.

Keep your abdomen and throat as relaxed as possible when playing. It may be difficult at first, and you may have trouble sustaining notes, but in the end, the more relaxed you are, the free-er the airway is, and the better the sound.

Get a teacher, not just a band director. Someone who specializes in tuba. I am a band director who plays tuba, and any time a non-tuba student of mine gets private lessons, I am overjoyed. They will learn far more with someone who plays their instrument than they ever will with me.

Good to see a young tuba player with such enthusiasm!! Don't lose that.

Now I'm going to tell you something that isn't as exciting as shopping for a new horn: stay on your current horn. Master it. Invest your money in a copy of Arban's and go through every page, taking your time and doing right. Spend your time in the practice room and not on TubeNet. Get a top-notch teacher to guide you.

No one has mentioned that playing F or Eb tuba will not automatically give you the upper register notes you mention. If your embouchure doesn't vibrate high F, playing an F tuba won't help you much.

Learn to play the BBb, be happy, it's a great horn. You may want to look for a teacher who is also a tuba player, that'll help you progress. Trumpet is not like trombone which is not like tuba, so if your teacher plays another instrument you are missing some good information. But it's not essential, you can still learn to play and enjoy the tuba.

Alex C wrote:No one has mentioned that playing F or Eb tuba will not automatically give you the upper register notes you mention. If your embouchure doesn't vibrate high F, playing an F tuba won't help you much...

I did

UTSAtuba wrote:... F tuba doesn't make the high register "easier". More accessible? Possibly...but you definitely need the chops to play high no matter what instrument you play (a mouthpiece that matches the horn doesn't hurt either!)...

@TinyTubist97

Your band director gave some "interesting" info.

The King 2341 BBb is a great all-around tuba and plenty for you at this time. But if you are really serious about tuba you should look into a good tuba teacher and later down the road maybe a bass tuba. If you stick with tuba all the way to college, you can then decide if you want to keep on BBb or pick up/switch to CC. There are so many great choices to choose from ALL BBb, CC, Eb and F tubas these days, new and old.

All best