TubeNet

Let me grab some popcorn, this should be interesting.

I'd be interested in being pointed to those documents, FWIW.

I don't have a dog in the fight, not being all that fond of sousaphones, but being a historian (of another subject) and interested in the tuba as well, I at least would be interested in seeing the footnotes that underwrite this declaration.

I suggest that you take a look at one of the actual sousaphones in the Greeenleaf collection at Interlochen. It is as I recall a four valve upright bell that weighed about a thousand pounds -- at least to an 83 pound me. I got to play it briefly in 1971. They have two ( I think) in the collection which was donated by CG Conn. John Beery might be able to supply pictures as he is the historian at Interlochen.
You could also review an article in ITEA Journal that had some photos and I did not see in bell front tubas there. I think the article was on August Helleberg. I also recall hearing that Sousa disliked bell front tubas as they blatted in his face. He liked the uprights because the low voice spread out like the frosting on a cake.
ScottM

Sousa himself is quoted in more than one interview of wanting the sound to come up and over the band, not straight at the band. Upright "raincatcher" bells it was for concerts. Now, in a primitive recording studio, one could see having the recording bell to get the sound actually to the recording horn. (Ever wonder how the front-facing bell got its name -- that's it, folks.)

KiltieTuba wrote:

iiipopes wrote:Sousa himself is quoted in more than one interview of wanting the sound to come up and over the band, not straight at the band. Upright "raincatcher" bells it was for concerts. Now, in a primitive recording studio, one could see having the recording bell to get the sound actually to the recording horn. (Ever wonder how the front-facing bell got its name -- that's it, folks.)

Yea, the recording bell came about sometime around 1905-1908 (well as far as serial number dating goes of the earliest known examples).
Although, I don't think Sousa had many recordings of his band.... I believe this was due to his distaste of non-live music. He was quite a showman and preferred, as far as I can tell, to have live performances to show off his band - something which the recording equipment of the day could not do.

Yes, Sousa disdained recordings as a gimmick. When the band recorded, it was usually Arthur Pryor who came out of the trombone section to conduct the band.

Yes, Sousa wanted the tuba sound to spread over the band "like icing on a cake" (his words). He rarely recorded with his band but allowed them to make recordings so they could make the extra bucks. There's at least one YouTube "video" of him with his band playing "The Stars and Stripes Forever."

I had the opportunity to ask William Bell (in 1969) about the Sousa Band sousaphones. I commented to Bell that "they looked awfully big and chore to fill (with wind)". Bell replied that yes, they were big instruments, but they all found the air to fill them "for him" - Sousa. Remember that Bell was still a teenager when he first got the Sousa job - pretty much on referral. Mr. Bell claimed to the end of his life that Sousa Band was finest musical organization he ever played with - and that included the NY Philharmonic! By the time Bell came in (1920s) there was a small army of musicians who knew what Sousa wanted musically - the band was around for 38 years.

All photos of Sousa's Band I have ever seen depicted upright bell instruments. He had tubas, too - I suspect an e-flat here and there to take the upper octave on the transciptions of orchestra pieces. He had forward-facing bells and tubas in the Navy "Jackie" Band (300 musicians) he conducted during WWI out of the Chicago Great Lakes Naval Training Station. The band mostly appeared in Liberty Bond drive parades. Must have been something to experience.

Mark Heter

It's always cool to see the photos of these old bands. I saw a photo of Pershing's Own from the early part of last century with a bunch of tubas, 2 bari saxes, one bass sax, and a contrabass sarrusaphone.

LJV wrote:This thread is a fine example of why the internet is not a scholarly source, kids.

After years of primary source research on Sousa and his band, the cringe factor here is off the charts...

Awwwwwwwww. You're just mad you didn't know everything in your early twenties.

I'm still the best euphonium player in the world....

dgpretzel wrote:

LJV wrote:This thread is a fine example of why the internet is not a scholarly source, kids.

After years of primary source research on Sousa and his band, the cringe factor here is off the charts...

Might you elaborate a bit, please? Are you supporting or denying that Sousa refrained from using front facing bells? Or are you alluding to some other historical aspect(s) of Sousa and/or his band?

If I may, I think he was actually alluding to his own superior knowledge.

That might not be much immediate help, but it does make you feel better about the larger picture, doesn't it? That there's still someone out there, in possession of the real scholarly factual information on matters like this, in case it's ever really needed.

bloke wrote:

TexTuba wrote:I'm still the best euphonium player in the world....

world class, my friend.
fwiw, I was the third runner-up National Sousaphone Champion in 1947.

Hey, a lot of times I'm the only tuba. So that makes me the best tuba playing in my bands!

bloke wrote:fwiw, I was the third runner-up National Sousaphone Champion in 1947.

This is impossible. I wrote a thesis stating that the Sousaphone was not invented until 1948. Since this was a thesis I wrote, one in which I was my primary source, it cannot...IN NO WAY...be incorrect.

TexTuba wrote:

bloke wrote:fwiw, I was the third runner-up National Sousaphone Champion in 1947.

This is impossible. I wrote a thesis stating that the Sousaphone was not invented until 1948. Since this was a thesis I wrote, one in which I was my primary source, it cannot...IN NO WAY...be incorrect.

From this posting one may wonder whether its poster is a textile tubist or a text uba.

K

Not related to the OP’s question this 1910 photo of the basses of a police band still isn’t withour bearing:

bloke, with all you talents, I would say:

Just hang on!

Apparently a lost joint venture.

It is a shame that what could have been a good discussion has once again disintegrated into rubbish - the sort of thing that puts a lot of people off TubeNet and stops many professionals from commenting!

For not believing everything read on-line, that is equally true of books - just because in print does not necessarily make them accurate. However what is good about on-line forums is that it allows questions, discussions and clarification that some scholarly book does not. In the the end one only knows for certain the validity of information through evidence. Many statements on-line, or in print are personal thoughts, guesses and opinions, rather than absolute fact.

LJV wrote:Yep. Just like "the Chinese travel tuba would never be up to Meinl Weston's standard" or "I now like the Chinese travel tubas. Wanna buy one?"

I can't see what this has to do with this thread, but obviously anything written about the playing of a model of tuba is just an opinion at the time - and opinions change with real life experience. In the case of the Chinese travel tuba it has far exceeded all my expectations to the extent that the Melton I previously owned is now sold - as they say "proof of the pudding is in the eating".

Back to this thread, the subject of discussion is the type of tubas played in Sousa's band which is a matter of FACT and not opinion as this can be ascertained fairly conclusively by looking at the many pictures of this famous band.

What I would question is "Did Sousa really not like forward bell sousaphones, or did he leave choice of instruments up to the players (or section leader)?" I wonder what was the format for his concerts? If audience was all around a bandstand then upward bells would be best to project in all directions, as a forward, or recording bell would send most of the sound only one way.

I had some interesting feedback playing my Neptune with band outside last weekend at a village fete. A bassoon player who was listening told me that my tuba (I was the only one) projected further than any other instrument in the band (of about 35) and this is outside with nothing to bounce off - so a recording bell is apparently not necessary to project outside when large tuba/sousaphone are used.