TubeNet

Hi-
I had this posted in a reply on the 'ebay' thread, but thought I'd post it here too.
Just curious if any militaria collectors or tuba collectors actually have or know of a vintage photo of one of the ORIGINAL Tornister ('travel/micro') Cerveny tubas and/or baritones being used/carried by the AustrIa-Hungarian military band around the turn of the 20th Century (or of a band from that period using this little guys)--just curious--BTW Chewie, you and I need to find one of these pics! I know Phil's Rub-n-Relics has both the Tornister tuba and baritone pictured on their site (http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/Brass/tuba ... rtuba.html" target="_blank & http://www.rugs-n-relics.com/Brass/euph ... -Bari.html" target="_blank, but I would like to see one of these actually being used in some old vintage photograph? Anyone know of one?
Thanks-
mark

I haven’t seen any so far, but started looking. I will bring what I consider interesting finds as I find them. Here a short clip with what must be a French military band:

http://www.framepool.com/fr/bin/617474, ... 1914-1918/

Great stuff--hope you can find something. Thanks!
mark

There is a huge archive of worldwide historical band (military and civil) photos I found on a British Brass Band web hub. Here it is - explore!

Here are all of the Austrian bands:
http://www.satiche.org.uk/vinbbp/phot5513.jpg
http://www.satiche.org.uk/vinbbp/phot6689.jpg

looks like a Tornister baritone in this one:
http://www.ibew.org.uk/vinbbp/phot8507.jpg

http://www.satiche.org.uk/vinbbp/phot4832.jpg
http://www.ibew.org.uk/vinbbp/phot9236.jpg
http://www.satiche.org.uk/vinbbp/phot3201.jpg
http://www.satiche.org.uk/vinbbp/phot4530.jpg
http://www.ibew.org.uk/vinbbp/phot9494.jpg
http://www.ibew.org.uk/vinbbp/phot8193.jpg

There are way too many German bands to go through!

I did a Google text search, which had me reading interesting, but tangential stuff, so time evaporated. It occurred that a photo search might be more relevant, as it is possible to sort without knowing German. The year may be changed as libitum. The German word meand military band:


http://www.google.dk/search?q=militärka ... 8&bih=1076

Again ä causes problems, and Tiny URL doesn’t solve it this time, so you will have to copy and paste, or maybe even enter Militärkapelle 1914 yourself. I am on a computer not having the ASCII limitations of Windows.

This photo popped up in the search and even before I read the caption, I could tell this band being Swedish alone from the valve trombone. We also had an older military bandsman playing valve trombone until maybe 20 years ago as a transitional measure from when bandsmen were recruited from amateurs. But the Swedish valve trombones are unique due to their bend at the joint between body and bell. That bend is very obvious, but not the 90° seen with the French valve trombones.

I think the Swedes call the Knäckbasun. As I get it, it is about avoiding the direct sound scaring the horse in mounted bands.

Klaus

[quote="David Richoux"]

looks like a Tornister baritone in this one:
http://www.ibew.org.uk/vinbbp/phot8507.jpg

Hi-
Great Austrian c. 1911 band image--I agree, I 'believe' it is a Tornister Baritone--now to find the image of a band with a Tornister Tuba.

And see that the man has a sling on his shoulder for possibly the backpack to carry his Tornister?

Thanks!
mark

jonesmj wrote:

David Richoux wrote:
looks like a Tornister baritone in this one:


Hi-
Great Austrian c. 1911 band image--I agree, I 'believe' it is a Tornister Baritone--now to find the image of a band with a Tornister Tuba.

And see that the man has a sling on his shoulder for possibly the backpack to carry his Tornister?

Thanks!
mark

The players of one or two Tornister tubas are in this photo. All the other band photos display one or two tubas or helicons. I assume the instrument mentioned is the one held by the leftmost player. But there is one more Tornister instrument to be seen partially just right of the officer’s hat. The give aways of the Tornister instruments are the slings and at least 4 of these are visible. The leadpipe of one more Tornister instrument may be seen back second from left.

Another instrument wrap seen here is new to me. Looks like a bugle attached to a rotary valve block. 2 of them. They are alto trumpets, which were bands in other nations used horns or alto horns. Normally these alto trumpet, or alto flugels if with a wider bell throat, have their bell bow up with their leadpipe like with the instrument front left of the officer.

Not exactly a Tornister tuba, but there are shared traits in the wrapping. there also used to be a photo on the web where the late father of the current Meinl Weston owner holds a similar, but slightly smaller bore, tuba.

I browsed all the German band photos offered via David’s link which met the criteriae of military and WWI period. Some of the photos are too low resolution and/or too diluted to tell anything instrumental from. Just about all bands sported huge basses or tubas, and I found no further Tornister instruments documented in photos. Which does not say that they cannot be found with further investment of time. Only that won’t be by me.

We have seen the modern video with the Russian band using an amplified BBb Tornister tuba, but in pre-amplificatian days its main purpose must have been mobility, when that was important for military reasons. Nothing hints these instruments were a widespread phenomenon.

Klaus

What's good about that design is the clearer view it gives the player of the music and where they are going when marching.

It is really incredible the variety of tuba designs and sizes - no other instrument seems to be so varied.

Klaus-
You win the prize! You must be eating your carrots--excellent observations, and bad eyes on my part! Yes, the back pack straps are a clue, and I agree it looks like another tornister to the right of the officer's hat and what appears to be another tornister leadpipe in the back. Interesting to note--look at the back slings--two are smaller than the others--might the 2 smaller ones be for baritones and the 2 larger ones be for the tornister tubas--if that is the case, the tornister on the far left is a tuba, not a baritone (however, when comparing the instruments on Phil's rugs-n-relics, the tornister on the left does seem to resemble the configuration of the tornister baritone, and not the tuba, but since both are so tiny and the image of the fellow holding the tornister--since we see it from the side-might actually be a tornister tuba).

Also, I too have never seen a bugle with a valve set like those strange alto/tenor horns--very interesting all the strange wraps.

Also, quite an interesting large tuba in the other image. I have seen and owned 'convertible' instruments from the U.S. Civil War--an Over The Shoulder Tuba that you could plays as an OTS with a 'pigtail' leadpipe and then use it as an upright contrabass saxhorn with a different leadpipe--making for the tallest upright tuba on the planet. Interesting stuff.

mark

:

Now that IS a tall horn...LOL....
mark

Via the index of my Yahoo based brass gallery (7000+ entries) you may find illustrations of 9 Tornister instruments from C & Bb tenors through F & BBb basses:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... %20format/

Klaus

Klaus-
Very nice gallery!! I am impressed.

Thanks-
mark

Hi-
[NOTE: Thought I would post this too in this thread.]

I sent an email to the originator of the travel/micro tubas-the Tornisters--to VF Cerveny for Thomas, and here is his/their reply--very interesting--FYI-mark

Hello Mark,

You are right, Tornister Horns were made for the Austria-Hungarian
Military and the meaning of the name is Backpack. They were carried by
the Cavalery and Infantery on the Backs.

Cerveny made Tornister Tubas in Bb, Eb and F. I have never seen or
heard of a Tornister C Tuba. Since the C pitch was not common to the
Austria-Hungarian Monarchy, I believe there were no C Tornister Tubas.
Furthermore he made also Bb Baritonehorns (Euphoniums) and also
Bb Tenorhorn. All these Instruments were 3 valves, I have never seen a
4 valves. Beside that Cerveny made also Tornister Bb Bass Fluegelhorn
with 4 valves. We don't know exactly when the production started and
ended, we just can assume, that these instruments came on the market
around 1885-1890 and ended in the production with WWII, means about
1938, but the main business for these horns ended after Monarchy came
to the end 1918. I guess these horns were made not just for the
Military, but noone except Military would use them. First of
all for optical reasons. but mainly for sound reasons. For the
purposes of the Military, these horns had to be wraped very compact
and in small bore because of the weight, so the sound was good for
playing somewhere in the field, but not for concert use. Thats why,
the main business came to end end after the WWI.

The Inscription CERVENY & SOHNNE - ZU KONIGGRATZ IN BOHMEN was the
common label for instruments sold to Austria.



Best regards
Thomas.