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For those of you in the New York region able to, I strongly suggest going to hear the Cleveland Orchestra perform Bruckner 8 July 8, 2011 at Lincoln Center. [Hell, catch all their performances that week.] But in point, I wanted to comment on the principal tubist’s performance of the work last Saturday.

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Yasuhito Sugiyama played the living $#!+ out of the work (the whole orchestra did) on a BBb Fafner and he sounded glorious. That he used a German-style instrument definitely was in keeping with the orchestras history, but his use of the BBb in an American orchestra is still a bit of an anomaly. But he proved its value (and his exceptional play ability) on this challenging work.

Be there or be a halibut.

J.c.S.

Lincoln Center

Thanks for the heads up!

I've got tickets for July 16th at Avery Fischer. I have heard great things over the years about Mr. Sugiyama's playing. I will be excited to hear Bruckner 8. I believe Cleveland will also be performing Bruckner 7 on the 14th, I wish I could attend both concerts!

That is why my main instrument is a BBb for Orchestras
M&M 8000
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Michael Bassichis
Principle Tuba
Symphony of The Americas
Sunrise Symphony
Peter Graves Orchestra
Miami U Concert Band

bort wrote:Lincoln Center

Thanks for the heads up!

Oops! Correction made

I absolutely love playing my Holton 345 in Orchestra in college, playing Scheherazade and a couple of world premiers on the thing was absolutely fun! I only wish I had it when we were playing Shosty 5 and Carmina Burana. I love when people ask if it's a CC and the reactions I get when I say "Nope, BBb." I'm not sure why but the notion of CC tubas being "better" has crept into other instrumentalists minds.

Another example of good tuba playing (that happens to be on a BBb tuba).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT6yuyULvDs

Start at around 1:30 for the beefy parts. Herr von Puttkamer has become one of my favorite tuba players over the last year or so, and this is a great example of his low tuba chops.

Hrmph. I still don't know if I particularly buy the whole BBb and CC difference. I think the difference is way more between an American BAT and German Kaiser. There are BBb and CC BATs and BBb and CC Kaisers. Just turns out the German Kaiser tubas are just way more often in BBb.

I friggin heart Bb tubas, but I'm not so hot on the Fafners. I find them waytoodamn tall (even for me! ) and awkward to play. I love the 191/1291's and that big Miraphone ain't too bad either.
RE that video (is that 2 tenors, 2 basses, and the Bb?), I like to see a middle horn between bass trombones and a big Bb- contrabasso, euph, or a smallish F would be nice.

DP wrote:pfft

IMO, people whose day job is orchestral tuba playing in a full-time stateside symphony have never made as big a deal about this stupid CC-vs-BBflat thing as the TNFJ (tubenet freak jury) chat munkies...primarily because if you can win one of those gigs you s/b able to play anything without a second thought. Of those pros, they use whatever works right for them and for the specifics of the gig. The fact that a pro shows up playing the **** out of a fafner means no more or less about BBflat -versus- CC, ANYone with that kind of gig can and will do the same thing if they have an appropriate horn available to them, regardless of whether its CC or BBflat. Those who can, play. Those who can't (myself included) talk about it.

I also think that the TNFJ has elevated the parochial BBflat thing in Yurrop to far higher levels than even the word parochial implies, making the whole topic an unfortunate public exercise in histrionics.

Excellent!

Ace

It really doesn't matter what horn you play on or what key it is in as long as you play it well and just because day a CC works better in some situations than a BBb doesn't mean that it will work better than a BBb in all situations. I think the pros realize this a bit more than most people because they have played the pieces with several keys of horns and don't discriminate against a BBb horn persay if it works better for them.

In a way, that was the point of the OP... picking an instrument for its sound is the only decision to make. In this case, the German style instrument suited the music and the orchestra to a T. Of course, some think only CCs are "professional". Here's to another nail in that coffin.

J.c.S.

bloke, tubas dont just play themselves in tune. they have to be played in tune (active verb)

bloke wrote: If trumpet/horn/oboe/flute/clarinet/bassoon/English horn players at the highest level (comparable to instruments offered to tuba players for $9000 - $30,000) were offered instruments that played so wretchedly out of tune as many tubas in this price range, they would test them, set them back down on the table, and laugh.

Gotta disagree with ya here, bloke. I have seen and heard many fine trumpet and horn players "compensate" for intonation on their horns - trumpet players using a 'kicker' for the 3rd valve slide and horn players adjusting their hand in the bell.
You are comparing apples and oranges. I think tubas play pretty well in tune -- especially many new models -- considering the huge amount of plumbing (tubing) and acoustical physics involved with tubas. Actually, I am amazed at how well tubas play because of those variables...

Oh yeah: extend yer CC to BBb

MikeMason wrote:bloke, tubas dont just play themselves in tune. they have to be played in tune (active verb)

+1

I just bought for the cool name and cause you said to

I see your point, bloke. And it's true that soloists - with some notable exceptions - play instruments that are very "in tune".

I know that when I go to a gig where my mind has to be on sight reading I-don't-know-what, I bring an Eb Besson. Likewise, if I have a very acrobatic solo work to perform. Why? I don't have to worry about intonation. At all. Is it perfectly in tune? No, but ^%#$ing close. And I've played 'em enough to not have to think about it.

The Cleveland Orchestra has a long history of using the "sidewinders" in the trumpet section. They tune very differently than their Bachs. The sound difference, however, is worth it to them.

Likewise, a change from F to BBb tuba (which I love watching and hearing in the German Brass DVD of Bach) offers a nice change of function and timbre and we've all heard that the Hilgers BBb is not inherently "in tune". Yasuhito Sugiyama does this in as well Bruckner 7 and it’s more than cool!

The problem is we don't play a standardized instrument yet. Until then, we are noticed for and scored for our sound, not our amazing technical prowess (most of the time).

Note also that a bassoon isn’t very flexible with regard to on-the-fly pitch change, and it hasn’t a mechanism like most brasses to make that adjustment. More, bassoons, when fabricated in a manner which equalizes and modernizes their scale, stop sounding like bassoons. Flutes, arguably the most studied and modernized and flexible of the woodwinds, still have different scales from maker to maker.

We have to select what works for each of us. Many of us are swayed by tone, scale, popularity, hero-worship, and varying percentages of all of these. Most of the mature folks here fall into a grove where they find an instrument which “is” their voice, and make the scale – which by the laws of acoustics can never be “perfect” – and learn to get along with the devious spousal relationship they have with the thing and get on with it. We’ve had several players in major orchestras play Alexanders. They don’t suck. Their scales may not be Besson Eb good, but they can be managed and the results of a good marriage between a flexible musician and those flexible instruments can be beyond glorious.

One thing I wonder... how much freedom does a major tuba player have in this choice of instrument? Surely there is a balance between personal/professional choice of the player and the sound concept of the group. Would a Kaiser BBb might get weird looks in the NY Phil, or a York CC might be shunned in the Berlin Phil? I would guess yes. But then again, Gene Pokorny has a Kaiser BBb in Chicago.

For top level players, is it "I play what I want to" or "I play what I want and am allowed to"?

LJV wrote:So, just as a round up, the "great argument for BBb in orchestra" referred in the title of this thread is that Yasuhito Sugiyama sounds good on his?

He sounds good on everything. No argument about that.

That's about it - and yes, he does : ]

Thanks Joe. That's kind of what I would have guessed, and it's interesting to hear your experiences.

I don't particularly care about what people play anyway. I play CC because I showed up at college without an instrument and said "I need to borrow a tuba." They said "sorry, all we have is a CC tuba." I said "works for me, I'll learn it." And the rest is history. I had no "reason" to change to CC, nor do I have any "reason" now to change to BBb.

That said, I'm always interested to see what other people are playing and what my section-mates bring to rehearsal. Not at all in any weird snooty way, but more the self-serving way that tubas are expensive and kinda inaccessible... and maybe they'll let me toot a few notes on their tubas during breaks.