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I learned something new, at least to me, about music theory (which I have never studied) after seeing these unusual key signatures using double flats. I doubt that I will ever see them again.

Arban's Famous Method for Trombone (Complete), numbers 43 & 44.

43 is in the key of Fb major, enharmonically the key of E. Bbb would be 5 flats and 2 double flats, same enharmonically as A. Ebb, would be 4 flats and 3 double flats, enharmonically the same as D, so 44 is in Bbb major.

Double Flat - haven't had my coffee
Double sharp - had too much coffee.

This looks like a very literal transcription from the Bb cornet/trumpet version. There #43 would Gb (6 flats) be enharmonic with F3 (6 sharps). That would make sense. Training major scales with double flats or double sharps makes little sense. The only situation where I have seen double sharps being relevant is in sharp minor keys, where the melodic and harmonic scales may call for raised 6th (melodic only) and 7th steps.

Klaus

I saw this recently in my church orchestra. I believe it was a Rutter piece with choir. We were in E and went up a step to F# as comoposers and arrangers are wont to do when they run out of other ideas to make a difference and stretch a song. The trumpets and clarinets whent to G# with the F##. However the editor had pity on the alto saxophones which are usually just a copy of the horn parts, and put them in the enharmonic Eb instead of D#. It made for some interesting head scratching until I figured out what the heck was going on.

Bydlo is in G# minor (or B aeolian), if my understanding is correct. And if my understanding is not correct, I'd like to know why.

Any other common orchestral parts in extreme keys that anyone wants to mention?

Would it have been a problem to put it in G minor, I wonder. It seems to me that putting it in G# minor was a matter of "well, I'll do it just because I can" . . .

tbn.al wrote:I believe it was a Rutter piece with choir.

Rutter. Ugh. I don't like the music that comes out of that guy's head.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

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GC wrote:Bydlo is in G# minor (or B aeolian), if my understanding is correct. And if my understanding is not correct, I'd like to know why.

Any other common orchestral parts in extreme keys that anyone wants to mention?

Yep. Bydlo is in G# minor, but not B aeolian. It would be G# aeolian. B aeolian would have 2 sharps (a mode of the D major scale). A mode is identified by it's first pitch, not the major scale it is derived from.

Richard Strauss certainly made use of extended key signatures. His Alpine Symphony, for example, goes from 5 flats at the beginning to 5 sharps in the middle before settling back on 3 flats at the end. The poor transposing instruments get quite a "key signature workout!"

GC wrote:Would it have been a problem to put it in G minor, I wonder. It seems to me that putting it in G# minor was a matter of "well, I'll do it just because I can" . . .

Remember that Pictures at an Exhibition was originally composed for piano. G minor and G# minor sound quite different on that particular instrument.

Depending on the tuning.

For that matter, I guess we're all referring to the Ravel orchestration.

For different reasons, neither Mr. Mussorgsky nor Mr. Rutter are here to comment on their writing, but I would not quickly pen all composers and/or arrangers and/or orchestrators and/or transcriptorizers to be folks who would repeat the tune bumped up a step or write in an inky key because they "can" or because they've run dry on melodies that get free advertisement from newspaper boys. When it comes to "black ops", we usually just stick to tone row theft or adding extensions without a permit.

Should an daring tubist ever crack that high G# and thoroughly prove that G# minor is a difficult key, then the go-to response might be to transpose the solo down a semitone to G minor (Fx minor for you honors students in the house). Being the good, God-fearing, tonal tuba players that our non-chromatic solfeggio has taught us to be, it is then only natural to transpose the entire "Bydlo" section down a semitone to G minor. This sounds like solid work as it would only take a few weeks to re-train the bassists, but there exists a meta-problem. The section immediately prior to "Bydlo" begins and ends in the key of B major and the nice TA in my theory class told me that B major and G# minor are closely-related keys (must be a hoot at holiday times!). If our perfect pitch patrons (P^3 for short) get an earload of that G minor-ized "Bydlo" following the right previous B major section, they'll likely think that there's been a coup, brandish their concealed-carry handguns, and proceed to summarily execute anyone who can properly pronounce the word "slonimsky".

So. We obviously have a dilemma on our hands (which are smelly and coloured green from our lacquer-stripped tubas). The way out? An instrument pitched in G#, of course! Or a Roland TB-303, whichever one will get more underwear flung onto the stage.

Just to be a pain, anyone who writes a concert pitch F# major part in G# major for the Bb instruments instead of the much more familiar Ab major is pretty dumb. Was this part written with accidentals in front of every note or did it have a G# key signature?
Ab major for community orchestra players is much better people management than G# major. Mind you I would still rather read G# major than have the same music grossly misspelt with say C# instead of Db but the rest in flats.

I'm wondering, are extended key signatures with double sharps/flats valid key signatures? The theory of continuing to add double sharps or flats following the normal pattern is logical enough. Who here would consider this correct and who would consider it incorrect.

Regards

Gerard