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I have always played compensating instruments usually in Eb for most of my playing history so far and have been lucky that every instrument that I have owned or had to play has been in tune across its entire range. With the exception of the odd note that would require an alternative fingering and then only if it stuck out like a sore thumb.

I have just bought a clip on tuner and tried with my 26K sousa and was very pleased to see that it was very well in tune across 3 octaves which suprised me a little.

So having spent some time watching tuba players on youtube and reading the posts about peoples different experiences with their German,Swiss,Czech,American and Asian tubas and the seeming eternal quest for the better ring pull or slide trigger I am left wondering why the demand for expensive tubas that require manipulation and modification is so big.

I would have thought that a soloist or ensemble player had enough things to keep them busy, breath control,embouchure, articulation and phrasing with out having to pull or operate slides as well in order to play in tune.

Playing a point and shoot tuba as I have seen it described in some posts is looked down upon by some posters or seen as the preserve of the amateur or student player.

I have seen a lot of posts recently calling into question the ability of the distributors of some Asian brands to influence the development and improvement of the instruments that they are selling but yet every one appears to accept the continuing need on some established main stream models to have to pull slides or use slide triggers.
It would appear from my admittedly brief review of these instruments on-line and in the forums that it is seen rather as a badge of achievement and musical ability to play these tubas.

I can understand players tolerating the odd awkward instrument if it had an unusual sound quality or some historical significance but I cant understand why or what is stopping the customers from asking for these characteristics to be designed out of the instrument.

Maybe some one with design experience or has knowledge of tuba design can jump in here and educate me with the reasons why on some non compensated designs like my sousa the tunning can be good and not on the Bb and CC that I see on youtube without the player adjusting the tunning slides in mid flight.

I some times think that some of the less gifted players of these tubas that have posted videos on youtube pull slides while playing because it is the done thing and they have seen other players do it.

I like my point and shoot tubas and enjoy the sound that I get from them and have learnt over the years to work around the two stuffy notes that I get on my two Eb upright tubas that are a result of the compensating system when using the 4th valve in combination.

I rather agree with you. I have never owned an instrument where I have found the need to continue slide pull.

Slide pulling seems to be an American way, while in Europe we tend to either use alternative fingering, or lip any out of tune notes. Any badly out of tune tuba would not be tolerated.

My Neptune plays very well in tune without slide pulling.

Different instruments have different pitch tendencies. It varies from Tuba to Tuba. The player can also effect pitch with HOW they play, supporting or failing to support certain notes.

Alternate fingerings are important to know, but some notes you just cannot tune without tugging on some slides. It's just the nature of the beast. It is more noticeable when you are playing in a group that is well tuned.

BRSousa wrote: It's just the nature of the beast. It is more noticeable when you are playing in a group that is well tuned.

Why does it have to be the nature of the beast? I have not done a search yet but I am confident that if I did there would be a lot of posts from members detailing what they did or were going to have done to improve their newly acquired tubas.
These improvements ranging from reversing rotors lengthening or shortening tunning slides moving lead pipes adding water keys etc. Some of these will be improvements to brand new tubas and some will be popular main stream models acquired second hand.

All of which to me seems like madness why would you assuming free choice and sufficient range of models available to try, buy a tuba that requires so much work to make it either play in tune or suit the player.

Intonation is relative. It varies with the tolerance of the player and the precision of the ensemble. Even in the best ensemble there will be times when a pitch must be adjusted to fit within a specific chordal structure. Technically, a truely point and shoot tuba is an phisical impossibility, the laws of physics won't allow it. My own requirements are a tuba that allows me to play relatively in tune with my emsemble without having to lip any note far enough to effect the characteristic sound I am attempting to produce. My current tuba accomplishes this by generally falling within 10 cents of center for the overwhelming majority of pitches in the range I usually play and in the keys I usually play. It also slots wide enough so a 15 cent lip doesn't noticably effect the sound. I call it a point and shoot tuba, but it is not really a "perfect pitch" tuba. I don't belive one of those exists.

tbn.al wrote:Intonation is relative. It varies with the tolerance of the player and the precision of the ensemble. Even in the best ensemble there will be times when a pitch must be adjusted to fit within a specific chordal structure. Technically, a truely point and shoot tuba is an phisical impossibility, the laws of physics won't allow it. My own requirements are a tuba that allows me to play relatively in tune with my emsemble without having to lip any note far enough to effect the characteristic sound I am attempting to produce. My current tuba accomplishes this by generally falling within 10 cents of center for the overwhelming majority of pitches in the range I usually play and in the keys I usually play. It also slots wide enough so a 15 cent lip doesn't noticably effect the sound. I call it a point and shoot tuba, but it is not really a "perfect pitch" tuba. I don't belive one of those exists.

Well said! Compare these two "tuning philosophies":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation

If you're willing to settle for equal temperament (everything but the octaves a little out of tune, but equally out of tune in all keys, like a piano), you can get that from many (but not all) brass instruments -- and that's the default setting for most tuners. If, on the other hand, you want the intervals and chords to "lock" (no grating "almost there" stuff), then you're aiming for just intonation -- and you're going to have to work at it (and listen!). Playing in tune in the latter sense is not a push-button operation.

Hi!
I like my 5th. valve(s) to be able to play Bb, A, and Ab,(CC) or Ab, G, and Gb (BBb) at the bottom of the staff. This is as close as I've been able to get to "point and shoot", and I still need to grab the 1st. or 5th. slide(s) for sustained C#'s or B's. I found the EEb clones I've play tested to be pretty in tune, but those compensators would be a pain to pull slides on anyway...I also tune only the "A" string of a Guitar or Bass to 440hz., tuning all the other strings via "harmonics", except the "B" string on a guitar. The "B" gets tuned to the "D" string via it's 3rd fret "D". I also "hear" a difference in Tuning when playing Bass or Tuba in an Orchestra. Thank heaven I'm rarely asked to play "color" tones in those situations!
Al

Actually, if the thought of slide pulling really gets your knickers in a knot, you'll want one of these:

http://cartoonsforkids.com/CoolTubas/manyvalvetuba.htm

Kevin Hendrick wrote:Actually, if the thought of slide pulling really gets your knickers in a knot, you'll want one of these:

http://cartoonsforkids.com/CoolTubas/manyvalvetuba.htm

it is not the thought of pulling slides I understand why people do feel the need to pull a slide. The knicker twisting was about why the perception of playing a compensated instrument or a non compensated tuba that did not need a slide pulled made you less of a musician in some posters opinion.

watch a pro trumpet player work his 1st/3rd slides sometime.A non comp tuba is a big trumpet...

MikeMason wrote:watch a pro trumpet player work his 1st/3rd slides sometime.A non comp tuba is a big trumpet...

....or a pro trombone player with his slide. See if his 3rd position is exactly the same in all partials.

I don't know if the trumpet comparison is quite so. A tuba allows much more 'lipping' of notes than a trumpet. I remember Steve Sykes at a masterclass demonstrating lipping I think a 4th

you can lip a trumpet too,just not always the best way.can cause tone quality/accuracy problems.Obviously there are great players who make lipping work beautifully...

sousaphone68 wrote:I am left wondering why the demand for expensive tubas that require manipulation and modification is so big

1. You are sadly mistaken if you think a compensating horn makes adjustments for slide length. Even more so if it is a 4 valve horn; it basically makes the horn a Bb/G double horn the way a double "French" Horn in F works- it only adds the tubing to make up for the change in key, not when you use more than one valve together. If you have a 4 valve compensating horn, it is in NO WAY making any automatic adjustments per note. The compensation only works if the 4th valve is pressed. One must use slide manipulation if the horn is compensating or not.

2. The Equal-Tempered piano does not make ANY key in tune; it only makes every key equally out-of-tune, so your tuner is not right, it's just close enough.

3. The overtone series is not "in-tune" with itself, so no tuba can be "in-tune" entirely, even in the home key of the horn.

4. Professional Musicians and most conservatory graduates are familiar with "Just" intonation, which is more in-tune than equal temperament. Modern Professional Symphonies make use of this sort of tuning. For example, while one can remove the beats from the interval of a fifth, thirds must be lowered for major chords and raised for minor chords. The more complex the chord structure, the more subtle the shading.

5. Slide manipulation only allows the horn to more fully resonate the pitch desired. You can force a note even if the horn does not fully support it.

6. Music involves the use of your ears and your brain; it is not simply a gymnastic exercise.

No, you didn't touch a sore spot!

windshieldbug wrote:One must use slide manipulation if the horn is compensating or not.

Must use slide manipulation??? While playing the ubiquitous 3+1 compensated EEb as used in the UK that is just not possible (slides not reachable and both hands already in use). But somehow we manage? And I think do a good job (just listen to recordings of John Fletcher, Owen Slade, Patrick Harrild, etc.) I guess by lipping which we learn to do as we develop as players.

I have seen the occasional orchestral pro slide pull playing CC over here, but no-where near as much as some US tubists.

Neptune wrote:

windshieldbug wrote: I have seen the occasional orchestral pro slide pull playing CC over here, but no-where near as much as some US tubists.

It's just a case of trombone envy -- the unceasing desire to have a truly chromatic brass instrument.

Neptune wrote:

windshieldbug wrote:One must use slide manipulation if the horn is compensating or not.

Must use slide manipulation??? While playing the ubiquitous 3+1 compensated EEb as used in the UK that is just not possible (slides not reachable and both hands already in use). But somehow we manage? And I think do a good job (just listen to recordings of John Fletcher, Owen Slade, Patrick Harrild, etc.) I guess by lipping which we learn to do as we develop as players.

I have seen the occasional orchestral pro slide pull playing CC over here, but no-where near as much as some US tubists.

+1
I was trying to remember anytime when playing quintet concert band symphonic wind ensemble symphony orchestra and accompanied soloist that I failed to use my ears and sounded out of tune or produced an unacceptable tone no can't think of one never had to pull a slide either.
Correction after initial set up and testing never had to pull a slide while playing.

5. Slide manipulation only allows the horn to more fully resonate the pitch desired. You can force a note even if the horn does not fully support it.

I didn't say that people couldn't play musically, only answered the OP's question as to why people used anything but a "point and shoot" tuba!

Neptune wrote:I remember Steve Sykes at a masterclass demonstrating lipping I think a 4th

Hell, I saw Marty Erickson play a (2nd to 4th partial) Eb scale with NO valves.

bloke wrote:I never hear "professional musicians" talk about equal temperament, just intonation, unjust intonation, justsayno intonation, meantone temperament, smokytone temperament, quick temperament, bad temperament, or any other type of temperament. I just see and hear people listening and (usually, thank goodness) making stuff "sound good".

"Professional musicians" (in my experience) talk about stuff like, "Hey, do you want to kill a $4 pitcher of beer at that Mexican place three blocks away during the concerto and intermission ?...Who's driving ?"

Bloke gets it