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Well,i've run into my first problem with my new Mack Brass(tm) 186 clone.My wrist starts getting tight after a while.I don't think this has anything to do with China.I think this is a German problem any suggestions?I've removed the thumb ring,but that didn't seem to do anything...Really like the horn though...

Get the paddles redone so that they are at a natural angle. This is one of the lame things about Miraphones; you'll only really feel comfortable if your right arm is only a foot and a half long.

that sounds right.i'll try it...

I had the same problem when I played on Mirafones. I attribute it to the vertical placement of the bridge for the linkage. Meinl Weston does theirs at an angle and even the old Monster King rotary horns started out straight and went to a slanted bridge. I have one of the older Kings and solved the problem by soldering a coin on each finger spatula with the first the most extended and the fourth not really extended at all with the other two graduated from first to fourth. The only drawback is that first valve feels like it has a longer throw(because it does) but I got used to it quickly and never would have gotten used to the pain in my wrist, and fingers for that matter. Hope this is of some use. Ed

I appreciate this post because I think it's helped me with a comfort problem I've been having. Of course anything like this is really a mixture of the physical layout of the instrument and the physical layout of the player and other "things" the player may have going on. In my case this includes a couple of cervical disc fusions, and a current rotator cuff problem and know arthritis and bone spurs in the right shoulder. But we all have problems.

My Cerveny is pretty much a clone of the 186. I'm 6'2". I have found (since I've started to get back to playing it after a long time), that things start to hurt after fifteen or twenty minutes (if not before).

What I've found is that the discomfort (pain, if you will) is largely associated with both tension in the wrist/forearm as I play, and hunching the right shoulder to keep the wrist and forehand in position. This results in constant muscle tension in places it really shouldn't be.

I had never thought (duh!) of not using the thumb ring. But it seems that if I abandon hanging my hand from the thumb ring (which I THOUGHT would reduce hand/arm tension), and instead rest it on the pull ring for the second valve slide, things feel a LOT better -- and my fingers are on the paddles in a more secure and uniform way. And it allows me to comfortably rest my forearm on the horn as well. Also, I find that holding the horn as close to vertical (without needing x-ray vision to see through the bell) is advantageous.

It's too early to tell if this is just one of those "I changed something and it seems to be better, but that's mostly an illusion" type of things. But it does seem promising.

Just get 3 and 4 cut shorter. You can lower your wrist then.

I think the placement of the 5th valve has a lot do do with the comfort of the other 4 fingers. Is the 5th valve comfortable, or up too high?

My Miraphone has some "curve" to the rotor paddles, and my Cerveny has more of a curve to them. Rotors 1--4 on the Cerveny are more comfortable than on the Miraphone, though the Cerveny "straight across" 5th valve is still a head scratcher for me. They've got 1--4 done ergonomically, but still need to work on #5!

I like the fifth on the left. That frees up the right hand to do whatever is necessary to adjust for comfort. One of the most comfortable rotary tubas I've owned was the huge Cerveny 601-5MR with the fifth valve on the left side.

Ace

please post a pic of your mods!

bloke wrote:Just to argue the other side: Clarinets, flutes, violins, guitars, and pianos aren't exactly "adjustable to fit the hand".

Yet another reason why some of us don't play them ...

Kevin Hendrick wrote:

bloke wrote:Just to argue the other side: Clarinets, flutes, violins, guitars, and pianos aren't exactly "adjustable to fit the hand".

Yet another reason why some of us don't play them ...

But some of us do ... or at least have. I unearthed one of my old flutes this past year, messed with it for a while, and then put it in shape for donation to my daughter's middle school (she teaches 6-th and 7-th grade math). At that point I also bought her a new flute (a moderately high-end Jupiter on fantastic sale at WWBW) since hers had been stolen and never recovered several years ago. I was interested to see some genuine improvements in the ergonomics of the instrument over the years. Flutes -- especially the "French" style open hole models -- are in fact a real pain to hold, especially for those with small hands (the G and G# keys in the left have have always presented challenges, as have the notes affected by the little finger of the right hand, and even the third right finger low D). On a closed hole flute you can cheat a bit and play on the edge of the keys. But on an open hole flute, you're screwed.

Finally it appears that the manufacturers have realized this and started to "offset" some of the keys so that they can actually be reached by normal humans without contortions. Alas, these modifications are still not "standard" and by the time I noticed the WWBW super sale on the Jupiters, all the ones with the offset keys had been slurped up -- what a surprise.

Certainly some things are more difficult than others. But why make them more difficult than they need to be?

ghmerrill wrote:Certainly some things are more difficult than others. But why make them more difficult than they need to be?

+1

MikeMason wrote:Well,i've run into my first problem with my new Mack Brass(tm) 186 clone.My wrist starts getting tight after a while.I don't think this has anything to do with China.I think this is a German problem any suggestions?I've removed the thumb ring,but that didn't seem to do anything...Really like the horn though...

When I had my 186 clone, the first thing I did was remove the thumb ring. In my case, it did help. However, I do tend to hold my tubas more upright, as these horns were originally designed for. One of the few rotary tubas that lends itself to the steeply angled "American" style of holding is the Marzan.

*I remember at a Region or AllState band 25 years ago that the biggest complaint was that the tubas were not holding their tubas all at the same angle. The conductor attributed this to their "embouchures."

Using a playing stand would help to hold at better angle for the wrist and more relaxed attitude not having to work to hold tuba in position.

And it would allow the tuba to vibrate better so improving its playing too

Jonathan "who rarely plays without stand"

Strange, I've never really noticed much discomfort on my 188 (outside of never really being thrilled with 5th valves, though I do prefer RH ones). I think it's really one of the few "I could play all day" tubas I've had.

Bob Kolada wrote:Get the paddles redone so that they are at a natural angle. This is one of the lame things about Miraphones; you'll only really feel comfortable if your right arm is only a foot and a half long.

I did exactly that. And redid the thumb ring so it was at the proper angle for my thumb relocated so the 2nd valve slide just cleared it. And had the height and angle of the leadpipe redone to fit the height of my torso and my overbite. Now, instead of niggling or getting something sore, I just play.

Once upon a time, I did some Alexander Technique study related to my holding my 186 (it's still the only horn I play, usually) I too was having some right hand/wrist problems. I found out that the issue with my right hand/wrist was largely due to the position of my LEFT arm and shoulder.

Early on, I was taught to be a relentless slide-puller (which I am not anymore) and I'd hold my left arm and shoulder high to reach over the body of the horn. I'm not all that tall (5'-8") so reaching over with my left arm was really putting my shoulders at an angle, which in turn was actually affecting my right hand, all the way to my thumb.

I changed the position of my left side and evened my shoulders and adjusted the angle of the horn (angled it more) and also made sure that I was bringing the horn to me, rather than me going to the horn -- and the issues got much, much better. It was all about finding the position of balance.

Always make sure your shoulders are at an even "T" and that one arm is not raised significantly more than the other, especially from the elbow to the shoulder. Your body should always be as symmetrical as possible, especially side to side.

I also have dealt with this in a standing position (which I now perform in almost all of the time, unless I'm in a large classical-style ensemble, or in the studio) and I hold the horn much like a guitar, with my shoulders even. The 186 is actually quite well balanced, and it's all about the angle of the horn.

Practice playing in front of a mirror and go through the following checklist:
-are your shoulders at an even and relaxed "T"?
-is your spine straight?
-are your shoulders at right angles to your spine?
-are your feet evenly planted on the ground?

*side-to-side* alignment is crucial.

One very helpful thing to do that I learned from several Alexander instructors is to sit in a chair in front of a mirror without your horn, put your arms into a relaxed playing position (keeping the above in mind) and then have someone else bring your horn to you and put it into playing position -- and see how much you are adjusting your body to get to the horn. Ideally, you should not be moving your body much at all once the horn gets there. Don't *reach* to the horn while you play and keep your shoulders in their normal, even state.

I found that another contributing issue to arm/wrist/hand issues was the carrying of heavy things right before the gig. Carrying the horn, an amp, or anything else primarily with my right hand would cause me problems mid-gig. I avoid this now and realize that my fingers-to-my-elbow are actually a delicate situation and don't fatigue them, especially right before a long playing session.

Yet another factor I found was typing and using the trackpad on my laptop for a long period of time. If I am doing trackpad-intensive activity for a long time, I use a mouse. Lots of smartphone typing can get to me too.

All this ergonomic stuff is pretty crucial. Listen to your body. Just like with respiration, it already knows on it's own how to do things better than you can actually actively teach it to. Adapt your horn playing to what is already there and is most natural.

That is very interesting for all of us 'tubajoe' - thanks for posting!

Great advice, Joe. I remember being lectured about posture in college by my band director (a tuba player) for reaching over the top of my tuba to get to the slides. Keep your shoulders even, feet planted, back straight, and never bring your body to the tuba (bring the tuba to your body).

In addition to having your arms and hands be balanced, this also enables you to breathe more fully and more easily.

bort wrote:Great advice, Joe. I remember being lectured about posture in college by my band director (a tuba player) for reaching over the top of my tuba to get to the slides.

Being shorter as well, on larger tubas I usually prefer to reach THROUGH the tuba to get to the first valve slide. There is often an inner bow that makes for a nice wrist rest when the slide is not in use.
However, the way a 186 CC is wrapped, the top bow is considerably lower than on many other horns. On my schillaphone, I think I just rested it on top and grabbed the 1st and 5th slides when necessary.
(I realize that in both of my posts in this thread my advice has not been as helpful to your specific horn. sorry!)