TubeNet

A few months ago I bought a Besson 3v comp euphonium from a person on TubeNet. I liked it so much that I decided to have it restored. It's been at the shop for about 3months so far, or shortly after I bought it. It needed to have dents removed, be resilverplated, and possibly engraved.

Saturday I was asked by the shop to look at the bell before it is sent to be engraved and silver plated. The repair tech said that some of the scratches on the underside rim of the bell might show through after replating. I said that if that were true it wouldn't be worth continuing restoring it. I asked the tech to put all the pieces in a box so I could pick everything up on Tuesday and pay him whatever I owe. He agreed. Later he called me at home and offered to buy the euphonium for what I paid for it , saying he wanted to complete the project. I'm still mulling it over...

A part of me just wants to call it a day, end the restoration, and look for another euph. Another part of me wants to have it replated, reasembled, etc., knowing the scratches might show, and also knowing the scratches will devalue the euph. There are some of these euphs on ebay, at what seems like high prices but in good condition, that I could probably get in a week or two, as opposed to the months long uncertain restore process I've been dealing with.

Do you think I should stop the restoration, and look for another euph that maybe doesn't need restoration? Sell it to the tech? Keep it for spare parts? What would you do?

bloke wrote: - I would have looked at the VALVES first, middle, and last, as THIS seems to be the LAST thing to which people tend to direct their attention during a restoration. ie. "Lets do a show-perfect paint job, install custom upholstery, a wild sound system, and then see if the thing runs."

-

The repair tech said that some of the scratches on the underside rim of the bell might show through after replating. I said that if that were true it wouldn't be worth continuing restoring it.

Is this "for real"?

If the valves are in good shape, you should probably have this horn re-assembled and keep it. IMHO...

Your search for a new horn might be long and you might not find a better replacement...

FWIW, these usually retail for about $1000-1200 in music stores and I have seen them sell on here for as low as $450. I don't know how much you payed, but I assume that if the tech wants to buy it it is surely because you price is closer to the second figure and he hopes to sell it for the first...

Lastly, having not seen the horn and not knowing the tech who is working on it, How bad are does scratches? Does this tech usually do this kind of repair/overhaul work? You should probably be able to find someone on this board who does repairs and could certainly fix it and make it look pristine...

YMMV....

I own one of these, and I must say that it is probably one of the best horns I have owned for the money. The tuning is really good and the sound is focus throughout the whole. (I have never found a horn with such a "free-blowing" b-natural (2nd line bass clef)) On the other hand, I wouldn't spend much money on it, except maybe to have some work done on the valves...

Joe has brought up an important consideration: the valves. If they are not in top condition, what is the point to the whole exercise?

If there are scratches showing before plating, they will be there after plating. If that disturbs you,it seems rather unlikely you are going to be happy with the end result. I take it only the bell is being re-plated which would probably look a bit funny.

I think Bloke is also wondering why bother with a 3 valver as opposed to a 4 and I would be inclined to think the same.

If the tech is willing to give you what you have invested so far, why not bail out and try again? Nothing will have been lost except some time, which has already occurred.

It might be the easiest and best long term idea to look for another, preferably 4v in good condition with valves you know are good which will not cost you more than your purchase price to have ready to play. A Besson which needs "restoration", an expensive, time consuming process, would have to be very cheap to buy to be worth messing about with. They are pretty plentiful so you are not working with some rare and valuable item.

If as Joe says, the tech can make a profit - well, so what - good luck to him. Get another one which is in the condition you want and everybody will be happy.

Have fun.

Ken Herrick wrote: I think Bloke is also wondering why bother with a 3 valver as opposed to a 4 and I would be inclined to think the same.

It might be the easiest and best long term idea to look for another, preferably 4v in good condition with valves you know are good which will not cost you more than your purchase price to have ready to play. A Besson which needs "restoration", an expensive, time consuming process, would have to be very cheap to buy to be worth messing about with. They are pretty plentiful so you are not working with some rare and valuable item.

I don't want to start a flame war and a big debate over the 3 valves vs 4 valves... But I think a 3 valve euphonium is suitable in 95% of the musical situations in which Euphoniums are used....Moreover, 3 valves have not attained any sense of "demand" so they tend to be considerably cheaper than the 4 valve (even non-comp) euphoniums. I picked up a good 3 valve euphonium comp euphonium for about 600$ (with shipping(75$) and customs(15% of the price, approx. 75$)) At that price there is no other alternative that comes close to being a good value.

As I said, these medium bore horns tend to retail between $450 and $1200 (some have sold for $1500 and more) while the 4 valve Bessons from the same period (the 70's) tend to retail between $1200 and $2000... How much band/solo/quartet/ litterature calls for euph and really needs that Eb-Bnat range?

bloke wrote:I'm not questioning usability, but value.

A 2002 Chevy/Geo Prizm with 125,000 mi. with manual shift and air conditioning is very USABLE (after all: 40 mpg), but NEVER worth a $3000 coat of paint.

A 2002 Porsche 911, though, in great shape EXCEPT for the paint and with 125,000 mi. (even if it DOES have a couple of non-removable scratches under the door IS worth a $3000 coat of paint...EVEN THOUGH it will NEVER get 40 mpg.

It's simply a MONETARY VALUE issue.

The above post is about right: $400 - $1200 value for a 3-valve comp. I can't imagine removing all of the dents, polishing it, and silver plating it for a cost that is a whole lot less than the upper end of this value range. That makes the investment in the restoration non-recoverable...and we're not even talking about valve work.

I like your comparison...(Although I doubt that there are two euphs that are so different in quality and build as the two cars mentioned)

The point I wanted to get across is: 1. If the valves are good than it is probably worth it to put 1000$ worth of repairs for the cosmetic look of the horn. (Even if that brings the overall cost of the horn between $1500 and $2200, very few of these horns from the 70s are in good cosmetic shape)

Just look at this Besson for sale at Dillon's http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-12561-besson-3-valve.aspx
The cost is $1295 and it is dented. (And the condition of the valves remains unknown)

Another from Baltimore Brasshttp://www.baltimorebrass.net/index.php?cat=4http://www.baltimorebrass.net/pic.php?id=982

$1900...Looks good... but there is no way to know how it plays and the cost of getting there and back probably covers the $200-400 the OP would spend if his horn has good valves....

bloke wrote:With no disrespect intended towards any seller, owner, or potential owner, may I also point out that neither instrument - so far - has sold for those asking prices?

Touché....

But now the OP knows that if he does decide to sell his euph to the repair tech, the cost to get a cosmetically pleasing one immediately is not much more than the repair cost he has already begun...

The car comparison makes good sense to me.

I see upright Besson 3v compensating euphoniums go for around $500 on average on ebay. I think the prices on the instruments which were linked above are wildly optimistic.

One can buy a 4 valve compensating Chinese euph for $800, maybe $900.

Maybe I would have a 3v compensating euph restored due to an emotional attachment, but it wouldn't be a decision made with my brain.

Is there such a thing as a 1970's Besson with "good valves"? I wouldn't think that 1970's Besson valves would be anywhere near as tight as the new Bessons made today. I would assume that anything that age would need a valve job. Valve rebuilding is going to cost well over $100 per valve. One can spend in the ballpark of the acquisition fee just fixing the valves properly.

bloke wrote:The Chevy Prizm is infinitely more practical.
The Porsche 911 can go 175 mph...but the speed limit is 65. Nevertheless, it is infinitely more sexy and sells for much more money.

The 3-valve comp. actually tunes more pitches that are played far more often, and is more practical.
The 4-valve comp. only fixes a handful of very low pitches that are seldom played...but is more sexy, and sells for much more money.

Now you compare the cars side by side....

http://autos.msn.com/research/compare/d ... 4&v=t94314

And by extension... Since the Porsche costs about 10 times more than the Prizm the OP should get an Interbinen Euphonium http://www.inderbinen.com/Page_e/Euphonium_e.html for approx. $14000, which easily costs 10 times more than the Besson 3 valver.....

ok, I'm just being silly at this point....

The valves are in good shape.
The thing is, I agree with nearly everything that's been said, and that is why I'm having such a hard time deciding what to do. I like the car analogy; I have a modern York 4v comp, too. I 'm in a community band and the Besson would be perfect for what we play. It had a very easy high register. I especially like the small size of it's case, because I have trouble walking. When I was playing it, it was very comfortable to hold, and my right hand position felt natural.

Pricing for these horns strikes me as a little schizophrenic. Although, ...Willson makes a 3v comp- with a price tag that'll make your heart skip a beat!
Thanks,
hald

I'm going to sleep on it.

hald wrote:A few months ago I bought a Besson 3v comp euphonium from a person on TubeNet. I liked it so much that I decided to have it restored. It's been at the shop for about 3months so far, or shortly after I bought it. It needed to have dents removed, be resilverplated, and possibly engraved.

Saturday I was asked by the shop to look at the bell before it is sent to be engraved and silver plated. The repair tech said that some of the scratches on the underside rim of the bell might show through after replating. I said that if that were true it wouldn't be worth continuing restoring it. I asked the tech to put all the pieces in a box so I could pick everything up on Tuesday and pay him whatever I owe. He agreed. Later he called me at home and offered to buy the euphonium for what I paid for it , saying he wanted to complete the project. I'm still mulling it over...

A part of me just wants to call it a day, end the restoration, and look for another euph. Another part of me wants to have it replated, reasembled, etc., knowing the scratches might show, and also knowing the scratches will devalue the euph. There are some of these euphs on ebay, at what seems like high prices but in good condition, that I could probably get in a week or two, as opposed to the months long uncertain restore process I've been dealing with.

Do you think I should stop the restoration, and look for another euph that maybe doesn't need restoration? Sell it to the tech? Keep it for spare parts? What would you do?

Yes, however, the repair tech might see some profit in it, or he may just want to use it to improve his skills. Either way you don't lose from doing this.
Over here, there is not really a place in contemporary playing for 3 valved compensating instruments, there may be a few hanging around old band rooms, but for the most part not seen in serious performance or competition

Community band -- now you've hit the nail on the head. These horns were made by Besson to compete with "American Baritone Horns," like the standards from Conn, King, Olds, Reynolds, etc. I've had the pleasure of playing a concert with a gentleman who had one -- get this -- his folks purchased it new for him in high school, and he even still has the original mouthpiece, which sounds better on it than any other mouthpiece.

So I'd lean on assembling it and keeping it playable since the valves are in good shape, not necessarily a "full restoration," but, more like keeping the "daily driver" running, with maintenance as needed.

I think all such decisions have to be filtered through this new information:a brand new silver 4 valve comp euph that really plays w new case is 795...

In my humble opinion, unless this horn bears some great sentimental value, the cost of a proper restoration far outweighs the value of the horn.

Assuming you don't have to have the valves rebuilt, the dent removal,CAREFUL SCRATCH REMOVAL , polishing, prepping for silver plating and silver plating itself will cost a great deal of money.

This isn't to say that it wouldn't be worth it, but don't expect to properly restore this horn and then turn around and sell it for a profit sometime in the future.

Again, in my opinion, regardless of how well these play, these are regarded by many as student instruments, and that effects the overall value. The difference between 3 and 4 valves can mean more money. It's not a good or bad thing, it's just the way it is.

Of course this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

iiipopes wrote:So I'd lean on assembling it and keeping it playable since the valves are in good shape, not necessarily a "full restoration," but, more like keeping the "daily driver" running, with maintenance as needed.

+1

bloke wrote:They play down to low E with very good intonation. I've been hired as an extra to cover the baritone horn parts on Don Quixote, Ein Heldenleben, and The Planets. No, this isn't the complete list of baritone horn parts in orchestral literature, but I still don't recall having been asked to play anything outside the range of one of these instruments. Are there band pieces that reach lower than low E...?? yeah, probably. Would those pieces be ruined if those stray (shame on those composers!) pitches were covered by one of the tuba players (or the other euphonium-guy who has a 4-valve comp)? So far, I haven't made much money (like zero, because I can't play those pieces anyway) playing show-offy low-range cadenzas in the middle of theme-and-variations baritone solos. Who knows, though...?? maybe next week...?

yeah, a 3V comp (though not commanding high prices) will cover nearly all of the literature...but I still don't think I'd pay someone to buff and silver plate one of these.

Correct me if I'm wrong....but the version of Ein Heldenleben that I have always played as an Eb an a low C... Here is the part from IMSLP...Just look at the 5th measure after rehearsal mark 11... (And the part is in Bb bass clef...)

Thank you for all of the comments and advice. I decided to go ahead with the replating and have the horn finished, without additional engraving etc., to have a pretty nice, though not perfect, daily driver sort of horn. I already have a chunk of change in it, so I felt I might as well complete it. I know it won't be worth a large sum when finished.

One thing about this, and it applies to my tubas too, is that where I live it takes many months to get anything done. I know one local fellow whose euph restoration at a local shop dragged on for over 1 1/2 years. I don't understand why. The last time I needed a repair was for a small (tiny) dent on a tuba bell. Local shops said 4 to 8 weeks. I took it to ABI in Anaheim and they did it in one day. I took a mp to a local shop to be replated and they said they wanted to send it to the platers along with their other items to save on their shipping. They kept it for over 6 months, I called every month and was told it had been shipped. I finally got it back, unplated, as the shop never sent it off. Yesterday the tech estimated the euph would be done in about a month. I can only hope...
-hald

Thought I'd let you know how it turned out. Since the last post the euph has just been sitting at the repair shop. The tech last said he needed to reassemble it before he sent it off to have it replated. Today I went and got the euph and case back (not the mouth piece though). It hasn't been reassembled, still has dents that need to be removed, and only the bell has been buffed. I'm so disappointed and mad. I will never step foot in that music store again. The euph is a total loss.

hald wrote: The euph is a total loss.

I am really sorry to hear the restoration has not gone as smooth or quick as you had been lead to expect. When it comes to such projects any good shop is going to take a while to deliver the finished product. I must admit that I would be very hard pressed to process one in four months.
For many of us who do perform such work on a reagular basis, time to comit to rebuilds is always in limited supply. It sounds like your shop bit off a bit more then they were ready or able to chew at the time and were not as up front with you about the time table as might have been wise. I have been cought up many time with major projects taking far longer then originally planned (see: Holton 345). Fortunatelly the owners were very understanding and worked along with me so I could deliver the best results possible and stay in budget (Thank you Mike, Dave and Dale). Is the instrument really a "total loss''? What makes you think this is the case? I do hope you are able to work things out and get it back together and in working order. Those Besson euphoniums are really pretty good horns. Good luck.


Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

Ken Herrick wrote: . . . If there are scratches showing before plating, they will be there after plating. . . .

Some restoration experts would copper-plate and smooth, several times if necessary, to completely fill in scratches.

bloke wrote:

Dean E wrote:

Ken Herrick wrote: . . . If there are scratches showing before plating, they will be there after plating. . . .

Some restoration experts would copper-plate and smooth, several times if necessary, to completely fill in scratches.

That's borrowed from the silversmith discipline bag of tricks. It soaks up tons of money and a crazy amount of time...nearly prohibitively expensive...particularly for a 3V comp. euphonium...when a new silver Jinbao 3 + 1 comp. (which is a GOOD euphonium - copy of long-mouthpipe YEP-842 ) hovers in the lower $1XXX range (new).

bloke "There are some who view the best restoration as the least restoration."

bloke wrote:

Dean E wrote:

Ken Herrick wrote: . . . If there are scratches showing before plating, they will be there after plating. . . .

Some restoration experts would copper-plate and smooth, several times if necessary, to completely fill in scratches.

That's borrowed from the silversmith discipline bag of tricks. It soaks up tons of money and a crazy amount of time...nearly prohibitively expensive...particularly for a 3V comp. euphonium...when a new silver Jinbao 3 + 1 comp. (which is a GOOD euphonium - copy of long-mouthpipe YEP-842 ) hovers in the lower $1XXX range (new).

bloke "There are some who view the best restoration as the least restoration."

Actually, acid-copper-plate comes from the industrial side of the tracks. I was introduced to the process when rebuilding bumpers of all things. I don't recall using it in the silversmithing shop. Yes, it can be a tad costly but not outrageously expensive. When I had my local guys copper up two sets of large bows and branches for two tubas (about six pieces), if I remember correctly the bill was about $600. Yes, these were pretty high end horns and well worth the effort. Does this euphonium really require that much investment? probably not. I have rebuilt plenty just like this one in the past with great success and at relatively reasonable cost. We have ways of addressing scratches, its called sanding (GASP!!! OH MY GOD, OBERLOH USED THE ''S'' WORD, CLUTCH THE PEARLS!!!!!) yes its true. Hears a news flash kids, the factories sand them too. You just need to know what your doing and for crying out loud, don't be an idiot about it and over do it. I have found the Besson euphoniums to be very forgiving but you do need to have the skill and facilities if you want to do the job right and at a reasonable cost (see: BUDGET).



Regardless of its origin, Swiss or Chinese, you still have to sit down and hand hammer the dents and burnish and roll and press them out completely prior to lightly sanding and buffing. You still need to tend to the details and do good solder work. I typically mask and glass bead blast these kind of horns prior to silver plating but not always. The price of silver plating has gone up a bit and we are now getting hit with a sir charge on the process but its still doable. I am sure this horn can be restored to a very attractive and nicely functional state but it's a projct that is still going to take time and cost $1200 if it is to be done correctly.

Daniel C. "who contrary to others on this board feels the horn is still worth the investment if it is going to be played'' Oberloh