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All,

The mouthpiece I am currently using came with a Cerveni. There is an etching on the side that says 24AWI. Can anyone tell me what that means? Is the 24 the depth? The width? I know that this mouthpiece doesn't work for me very well, and it feels as if it's too small, but I don't know where to go from here. Since any type of brass instrument mouthpiece is rare to find in the back-water ghetto area I live in, I've got no way to try out other mouthpieces.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Tim

It is probably a copy of a Bach 24AW. You can go on the Bach website, download the mouthpiece manual, and it will have a description of what each number and letter means. For example, on this one, 24 is an index number for the cup diameter, with the higher the number indicating the smaller the cup diameter (not an actual diameter, like, for example, Curry's or Elliot's mouthpieces); the "A" means a deep cup, and the "W" means a wide rim. Now, being a copy, or a mouthpiece apparently made along those lines, it will not necessarily have any or all of those characteristics. And there is nothing about the throat or backbore that can be ascertained from the number, either, unlike, for example, a Schilke mouthpiece which has those characteristice encoded into the number, or where the extensions are not present, a particular characteristic is assumed. And finally, there is nothing in the number that would indicate the overall contour or inner contour, or "bite" of the rim as to how it will feel on the embouchure.

So the best that can be said is that it is probably a copy of a Bach 24AW in some similar way, shape or form.

Aardvark892 wrote:I know that this mouthpiece doesn't work for me very well, and it feels as if it's too small, but I don't know where to go from here.

Any way will be up, from where you are! I see someone on the "For Sale" page has some beat up mouthpieces for cheap ... maybe if you bought a handful, he'd make you a deal. I suppose you can skip the "24AW" clones, but there's a Bach 18 if you haven't tried that, and a King 2 that I'm guessing is related in some way to the Conn 2 and hence a medium size Helleberg.

If it is a clone of the Bach 24AW--which is likely because the Bach mouthpieces are long since out of patent protection--it might not be a very good mouthpiece for a beginner. The wide "cushioned" rim does not punish the player for using too much pressure, which is one of the worst habits to get into (it's taken me 40 years--and counting--to overcome that bad habit). I might make life tolerable if you wear braces, but otherwise I would recommend something with a narrower rim. A Bach 18 is a good, general-purpose mouthpiece that is also widely and cheaply copied. Another one in that category is a Conn Helleberg. Either of these would promote better fundamentals than the 24AW.

Rick "victim of early 24AW use" Denney

The "I" means that it has a Euro stem on it so a standard Bach would probably not be an optimal fit for the receiver on your Cerveny.

All the best.

Roger

Rick Denney wrote:If it is a clone of the Bach 24AW--which is likely because the Bach mouthpieces are long since out of patent protection--

I don't think any Bach mouthpieces were patented, or could have been. There was nothing unique or new about any of them. When I started making mouthpieces I looked through all of the mouthpiece patents at the Patent & Trademark Office. I don't remember seeing any relating to Bach mouthpieces.

The 24AW is ubiquitous in schools, and people leave them in the case. . . don't even take the 24AW with them when they go home for the Summer or progress to a new horn. It may be that the 24AW is a good starter for newbies? In any case I get immediate improvement with the 18 or Helleberg, even if I try to acclimate to the 24AW. I'm currently happy with a Laskey 30H, but its superiority to my old Helleberg may be due simply to the fact that it has a Euro shank and better fits the leadpipe on my new horn. . . so, Yes, I think the shank taper is important.

Roger Lewis wrote:The "I" means that it has a Euro stem on it so a standard Bach would probably not be an optimal fit for the receiver on your Cerveny.

All the best.

Roger

Mr. Lewis, can you (or anyone else) recommend a mouthpiece that would work with the Cerveny and have similar characteristics to the Bach 18? I also have a 1927 Martin Sousaphone, and so far the 24AW seems to fit the extension shank pretty well... which is good because the shanks will probaby never come off of that horn; I think they're welded on with age.

Thanks in advance!

The PT30 (according to the Ultimate Tuba Mouthpiece Comparison Chart) has the same diameter as the Bach 18, though I don't know if the internal dimmensions are similar. This mouthpiece would have a stem that would measure between the American (.520") and the Euro shank (.538") and should work reasonably well with the Cerveny. Most of the PT mouthpieces would have this shank size (.530") and be a fair compromise so find one that you like.

All the best.

Roger

That post from Matt Walters about the different shank sizes is very helpful.

I have discovered that on my Cerveny 781, the Standard American shank (represented by such examples as Conn Helleberg, Schilke Helleberg, and Kellyberg) seems to fit the best -- e.g., in terms of seating depth.

The "standard" Perantucci mouthpieces (Eurpoean Shank according to Matt, I believe) seat a good 3/8" further out than the Standard American shank ones.

And I just discovered that apparently Perantucci produces mouthpieces with two shanks. If you look on the Custom Music site you will see mouthpieces with an 'S' (small) suffix listed along with the others (e.g., PT-65S vs. PT-65). These are documented as having a "slightly smaller shank". I've got a couple of these on the way for me to try and I'm hoping that they in fact are basically a Standard American shank. I have not seen this 'S' shank listed on other vendors' sites.

ghmerrill wrote:These are documented as having a "slightly smaller shank". I've got a couple of these on the way for me to try and I'm hoping that they in fact are basically a Standard American shank. I have not seen this 'S' shank listed on other vendors' sites.

Mike Finn did a run of his MF4 with a .500 shank a few years ago, but as a one-off, not as an ongoing production. However, Denis Wick "no letter" mouthpieces are the smaller .490 shank for the older British smaller receivers, and are common stock.

I have a friend who plays a Ceventry Piggy and it definitely has a larger Euro shank. A standard American shank mouthpiece goes in the receiver almost all the way. He's using a Bach 7 and it makes his horn really sharp in strange places along the scale. I'm having him get a PT-84 or 89 with a Euro shank. I think he and the rest of the band will be happier....

These things appear to change over time and/or from model to model in the same brand. I just tested three PT mouthpieces from Custom Music: PT-64S, PT-65S, and PT-63.

In my Cerveny 781 the PT-64S and PT-65S fit perfectly, and seat to exactly the same depth as my Conn Helleberg and Kellyberg. The PT-63 does not seat as far by about 3/8" -- the same as a PT-65 (no 'S') that I tried previously and as my PT-89 that I'm having turned down.

Suprisingly, the PT-63 works stunningly well in this horn in terms of sound, intonation, and slotting. I gather it is a rarely used mouthpiece and is intended for large bore F tubas. But for me, it is the best I've tried: wonderful sound (though brighter than the PT-89) and great range from contra to above the staff. Effortless to play. They did not have it in the 'S' version and indicated they couldn't get it. So I'm keeping it anyway and may have the shank turned down since I don't think that should effect its other properties. It works well as is, and I may decide that if it ain't broke, then don't fix it. I'll wait until I get the PT-89 back and see what difference the shank modification has made.