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I have often seen bass tubas advertised as ‘FF’ or ‘EEb,’ while on the same page, also advertised as ‘F’ or ‘Eb.’

I always thought that a double letter (as in ‘CC’ or ‘BBb’) referred to contrabass, while a single letter referred to bass. (This is based on my learning that double letters do not start until ‘C’ two lines below the bass staff.)

Is my definition of bass/ contrabass incorrect? Or is ‘FF’/ ‘EEb’ just another way to signify a bass tuba?

AMTUBA wrote:Or is ‘FF’/ ‘EEb’ just another way to signify a bass tuba?

Yes. You may notice it depends on the tuba player's country of origin. Some people call an alto horn a "tenor" horn, call a tenor horn a "baritone" horn, and call an Eb tuba EEb. We don't really know why everything sounds lower to these people.

Donn wrote:

AMTUBA wrote:Or is ‘FF’/ ‘EEb’ just another way to signify a bass tuba?

Yes. You may notice it depends on the tuba player's country of origin. Some people call an alto horn a "tenor" horn, call a tenor horn a "baritone" horn, and call an Eb tuba EEb. We don't really know why everything sounds lower to these people.

Very likely a reflexion of Adolphe Sax's nomenclature.

Sigh. This brings back memories of endless threads on Tubenet.

The doubled letters hearken back to an obsolete system of octave designation devised by Herman von Helmholtz. But we've done it wrong. BB applies to the bottom note of the Bb tuba tuning scale, not to the fundamental pitch, while CC applies to the fundamental pitch, nearly an octave below BB (the double-letter octave extends from the C beneath the fifth ledger line to the Bb beneath the second ledger line--the "contra octave" in organ terms). The octave above that is higher than the fundamental pitches of Eb and F bass tubas.

I suspect the story is that somebody back in the day thought a contrabass tuba (designated as such at least as far back as Wagner) ought to have two letters, and the predominant instrument was the BBb. When the C contrabass became popular, it was natural to call it the CC.

F tubas have always been F tubas. But then Besson/Boosey and Hawkes engaged in a bit of hype. They advertised their Eb bass tuba, with its compensated valves, as providing a useful replacement for a contrabass tuba. So, they called it an EEb. Or, perhaps they wanted to be the only ones to use the Helmholtz system properly. But an EEb tuba is a bass tuba just like an Eb tuba, and both are pitched the same way. For Besson only, the distinction between Eb and EEb is between non-compensated and compensated valves, but that has no supporting history outside that brand's usage.

I prefer single letters, for the simple reason that nobody is confused by them. Nobody thinks I'm talking about a tenor tuba or a euphonium if I say "Bb tuba". But if confusing is likely, I'll say "Bb contrabass tuba". Wagner distinguished between F bass tubas and Bb contrabass tubas long before the conventions we use inconsistently today. Wieprecht's patent for an F tuba in 1836 calls it a "basstuba". So, the use of those terms has quite a lot of provenance. And most of the time, works are intended for either a contrabass tuba or a bass tuba, with no further distinction between C and Bb or Eb and F. (Exceptions are careful to specify the pitch, such as in brass band music.)

And for Klaus, didn't Sax use "saxhorn basse et Mi Bemole" for Eb tuba? I think that was as low as his system went--all the saxhorns Si bemole are tenor tubas.

Rick "who has played (?) a sub-contrabass tuba" Denney

Saxhorn contrebasse en Mi bemol

imperialbari wrote:Saxhorn contrebasse en Mi bemol

That would please the French, of course, but was that a term actually used by Sax? Did he have a contrabass in his series? Was the Saxhorn basse en Mi bemol actually an alto horn?

Rick "who knew this at one time but has forgotten" Denney

Saxhorn basse in Si bemol. Never was a Saxhorn basse en Mi bemol.

Rick Denney wrote:Sigh. This brings back memories of endless threads on Tubenet.

The TubaGod has not been activated. When discussing bass and not contrabass, the ultimate source is the Bass Master.

Rick Denney wrote: Rick "who has played (?) a sub-contrabass tuba" Denney

Didn't Hoffnung refer to that as a "sub-octo contrabass tuba?"

To the OP, the most common colloquial definitions are BBb and CC for Contrabass Tubas, F and Eb for the basses, with EEb usually referring to the English 4v compensating (double) tuba in Eb.

For the best examination of Tuba nomenclature, look to Clifford Bevan's "The Tuba Family". It's the most complete and studied resource.

[Eb was considered contrabass to Sax, BBb was subcontrabass, IIRC]

J.c.S.

Saxhorn contrebasse en Si bemol. Not originally part of the Saxhorn family. Distinction by pitch, not by a new category.

Klaus

The US LOC has a selection of Sousas marches in mostly parts-only available. I wrote some of these part-sets into rough Finale scores definitely not ready to be issued, but still fulfilling my wish to look into JPS’s toolbox.

His early marches up until shortly after 1880 clearly are related to the CW era band with its OTS brasses, where the BBb bass was extremely rare, if it existed at all.

In Sousa’s bands as in Woods’ and in the then British brass bands there was a Bb bass. In the US based scores it is written in bass clef and hence can de identified as a baritone fatter than the two tenors. In the BBB scores the Bb bass is on the stave above that of the Eb bass.

The British BB had valve as well as slide tenors aside of the bass trombone and the said Bb bass. In the US the two valved tenors and the Bb bass eventually became the tenor and bass trombone parts. There are transitional parts allowing for valve or slide instruments. Sousa has the Bb bass in Bb treble as well as in bass clef concert until the bass/3rd trombone wins may 90 or 100 years ago.

That way the US bands loose the option of 3 part (in brass bands even 4 part) settings of the baritones and euphoniums. This effect can get old, but if used with discretion it is very efficient as an ear catcher. That effect is possible in the BBB as well as in the continental European concert bands.

The BBb bass appears sneaking its way into all sorts of bands from after 1880 on the basis of availability until it gets a firm foothold and in the US even becomes the main band bass. With Sousa’s band it looks like they went to all BBb basses from around the invention of the sousaphone 120 years ago. Anyway I never have seen any documentation that Sousa employed Eb sousaphones in his band.

So originally the Eb bass was the contrabass with the Bb bass playing the upper octave. The transition to BBb bass as the contrabass happens at the same time as the preferred range of brass playing is lowered. Previously the Eb cornet was the lead of the brass section. Eventually that part disappears fully from the concert bands on both sides of the pond. And in the BBB it becomes more ornamental than leading.

Klaus

All correct, of course Klaus. The comment I made was to indicate that the Eb was considered the contrabass (with upper Bb the bass). Civil war scoring typically follows this voicing. I was, however, remembering a reference to the original family being down to Bb subcontrabass, but it was not built in the early years of manufacture, but described in the family description by Sax. I'll check again.

Bloke, in my hope to make the most bland generalization, you're trying to draw me into a discussion of exactitude, sir; I won't be persuaded (though you're - of course - correct as well).

J.c.S. (who thinks "contra alto" to describe a voice lower than bass is utterly preposterous!)

In my Shrine band we recently got a German edition book of polkas, and the writing is definitely "bass tuba" in range, not "contrabass tuba." It almost made me want to save up the $$ for a good Eb.

bloke wrote:"Basses" appears on an awful lot of old band music.

Since the internet wasn't around for people to pick their noses and compare their boogers with others', no one questioned it.

"Basses" was sousaphones or tubas - any.

Sure - actually unless someone has edited his post, I don't see that anyone had questioned that up to this point, but at any rate it's good that we got that out of the way. Most of my stack of march parts are "bass" or "basses"; several are "Eb bass" or "Eb basses", but only a tiny minority and in at least one case probably owing to the British practice of bass clef notation for (only) Eb tuba, not because anyone cared which tuba played the part.

I spent a few minutes looking for evidence of that a US manufacturer ever offered an "EEb" bass tuba. Found nothing on that (H. N. White's monsters were "Eb" as of 1911), but did find one reference to a Conn catalog ca. 1919-1924

horn-u-copia wrote:A catalog refers to it as "New Invention Giant or Contra Eb Basses" 3 valves $145, 4 Valves $157

Couldn't find any evidence of the catalogues themselves online, other than of course H. N. White. Anyway, this looks like another attempt at the same nomenclatural distinction - neither "bass" nor "contrabass", it's a "contra-Eb-bass"!

bloke wrote:"Basses" appears on an awful lot of old band music.

Since the internet wasn't around for people to pick their noses and compare their boogers with others', no one questioned it.

"Basses" was sousaphones or tubas - any.

So when did "Basses" come to mean String Bass and Tuba/Sousaphone written in octaves (yes, I know Bass reads 8va higher)? I've never seen a String Bass Part for a Holst Suite, I'm always handed the "Basses" part I would use on Tuba. Yet the part is clearly intended for BOTH instruments, including tacits for the Tuba while the String Bass plays, usually with the Wood Winds...

Al