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Might be like buying a newly released computer operating system, but with a lot more cash at stake.

Better to wait a while until the first bugs are worked out?

Hi-
If a brand new model, I would want to play several before buying. If it were a prototype, I would wait until the actual production models came out, and then want to play several before buying.

'New and improved' does not mean the others were 'old and lousy.'

However, I may make an exception in 2012........
Mark

I have bought four tubas, all used, and do not see any advantage in buying a new tuba. Used tuba purchases involve person-to-person transactions, involve more interesting instruments, and (if you are not in a hurry to buy) involve a greater variety of models. In the vast majority of cases, it is also significantly cheaper to buy a used tuba.

The obvious answer is:

Instrument makers should give the first 2000 copies of a new model to high schools to trial for a period of five years.

The recipient schools should then sell these used instruments to private owners for no more than $500.

The makers then give 2000 copies of the next new model to high schools for trialing for a period of 5 years so they can be sold for no more than $500.

Keep repeating this process.

School music programs will no longer need to waste millions on replacing instruments. Nobody will have to buy a new model and risk getting something with problems due to unfinished R&D. Everybody who wants an instrument will be able to get one cheaply and replace it every five years and only have to wait 20 years to get a vintage instrument and nobody will have wasted money on a POS.

This is just like anything else: try before you buy. You wouldn't buy a car without test driving it and you SHOULDN'T buy a Tuba without trying it especially if you are dumping a ton of money into it.

Make sure the place you are buying from has a trial period. Most places worth their salt do. This way if you try it and don't like it, you can return it for a small restocking/clean up fee.

Truth be told, if you are prepared to shell out a ton of cash for a new horn (which is a huge commitment) you should be prepared to go somewhere to try a new horn out.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Ken Herrick wrote:The obvious answer is:

Instrument makers should give the first 2000 copies of a new model to high schools to trial for a period of five years.

What? No no no no no no no.....

Regarding what bloke says about bigger, "better," etc.: even Miraphone has made the 186 slightly bigger all the way around over the last 20-30 years. I got to compare mine (@1971) to a new one. The new one has a larger diameter lead pipe, larger diameter tuning slide, larger top and bottom bows, and a larger flare bell, and with the new bell flare that is more like the tuba version of a Bach 37 trumpet bell that sounds more "American" or "Vanilla" compared to the older stovepipe. But it does blend very, very well in section, and supports a variety of ensembles from quintet to large concert bands, and even orchestra usage, as is in another thread. So it is arguable that actual "progress" has been made with this particular model. But I still prefer the tone of my old one with the smaller leadpipe, etc., in spite of it all, as we all get used to the kinds of instruments we either first learned to play on, or got used to playing on.

Regarding the comments about misfortune of installing new equipment and the attendent "shakedown" needed to sort out unforseen or unforseeable issues versus the comment about never buying new: both situations are necessary. If new items are never developed, stagnation occurs and progress cannot occur. But if used instruments, cars, machinery, etc., are never fully utilized, there is waste in the economy. The balance between the two is not an easy one to find.

I really dig my Bruckner, and I was the first one in the U.S. to get one, as far as I know. Bought it sight and sound unseen, on specs alone. Maybe that was nuts, but the gamble paid off this time.

I inquired about purchasing the actual prototype of a model because it played so well despite its "unfinished" appearance. I was informed that (surprise!) the prototype actually would be used as a comparison to production models and would not be sold.

Is that always the case with every model that appears on the market? Are the prototypes generally kept forever by the factory, or sold as-is, or "prettied up" and sold, or retained by a company employee, or discarded/destroyed?

I'm no top player by any means, but I think I'm good enough to know a good tuba when I play one. If I play a model that is new and it turns out to be a great instrument, what do I care if nobody else likes it? I'm buying it to use, not as an investment or to impress others.

I've bought two instruments in that category. The Yamaha YFB-621, which I bought when the model was in its first year. Still have it. It's still the only instrument I own that has paid for itself. I have many times thanked myself for buying it--for many applications it's just perfect.

I also bought a Vespro--one of those brands Jim Gavigan was importing for a while. It was made by VMI and it was not bad at all. I had my Miraphone overhauled when I bought the Vespro, and then I found myself preferring the Miraphone. I sold the Vespro to a church and the guy that plays there still enjoys it a lot. It had one funny note but otherwise was a good-sounding tuba (but not as good as the old tall-bell VMI) at a good price.

I think a lot of tubas are as good as they seem to be, but the players can't decide what they want a tuba to do, so they hop to the next big thing every year or two. I can understand the temptation, but that says more about the player than the instrument, it seems to me.

Rick "noting that the Vespro was the only tuba bought on someone else's recommendation" Denney

Ken Herrick wrote:Instrument makers should give the first 2000 copies of a new model to high schools to trial for a period of five years.

Where do you think the manufacturers are getting the money to keep going? The sales of one new model are ESSENTIAL to fund the expensive development of the next.

I think it is highly unlikely any brass manufacturers are sitting on a pot of gold to be so charitable

Steve Marcus wrote:I inquired about purchasing the actual prototype of a model because it played so well despite its "unfinished" appearance. I was informed that (surprise!) the prototype actually would be used as a comparison to production models and would not be sold.

Is that always the case with every model that appears on the market? Are the prototypes generally kept forever by the factory, or sold as-is, or "prettied up" and sold, or retained by a company employee, or discarded/destroyed?

At B&S there was a whole room of prototypes unlacquered and covered in dust. I was told they are used for reference.

Dylan King wrote:I really dig my Bruckner, and I was the first one in the U.S. to get one, as far as I know. Bought it sight and sound unseen, on specs alone. Maybe that was nuts, but the gamble paid off this time.

Sometimes one has got to take a gamble - sometimes win and sometimes not - pleased your Bruckner worked out well!

My guess is the majority of tuba are bought sight unseen, although obviously always best to try first if you have the opportunity. I have been amazed on trying tubas others have raved about on TubeNet to find they completely unmove me. Tubas are like dress, very personal to the individual. But once the right one is found, it is like magic!

In some cases, the first models to come out have a lot of extra attention paid to their construction, or more handcrafting that later models once production processes are finalized. My Yamaha 621 F was from the first batch and said to be more handmade than later batches.

Interesting topic.

The "common sense" responses take some of the fun out of discussing the topic, but nonetheless, they are: 1) try before you buy and 2) early production or newly released does not equate to "better" nor does it equate to "worse."

Going a bit further, many instruments are rumored to have a "best" production period, or vintage. Most people seem to think that the earlier the better, citing that they received more attention, are handmade and so on. Others feel the latest version will have all of the tweaks already built in, and that is the one to buy, ala 1292 vs. 1291. Others feel that the latest production runs have real changes that make them inferior to earlier production horns ala Alexanders, Miraphone 186, Yorkbrunner. Me? I'd buy a "good one."

Just as Rick said, if I play a new (or old, for that matter) model that turns out to be a great instrument, I don't care one bit if it is fashionable, cool, trendy, impressive to others, or was made the first day or yesterday. All one needs to do is look at what I do play to see that I just don't care what others think about my gear:

45-SLP. Yes, this really is a special one that was handmade. I've written extensively about it before. This was the first one, other than Warren Deck's own, to ever be built, period. Not a production horn. Nonetheless, this model is the uncool F tuba to own, play, or be seen with. Don't care. I think mine may be the finest SLP ever built and MUCH, MUCH better than most of the highly recommended models here. I love it and intend to keep on playing it and would go to extreme lengths to keep it alive, much like Joe and his Symphonie (which received a complete valve section transplant).

Alexander 163. They're all handmade to order, one at a time. This is the go-to model for folks to reference when talking about how awful tuba intonation is or when trying to make themselves feel better about buying a newer, much more expensive model with crappy intonation. Never mind that most of these people haven't ever been in the same room with an Alex, let alone played one. Mine's old, has rotors, and only has 4 of 'em, and is only yellow brass. Their most stripped down model. I must be crazy to play something so crappy, right?

I wouldn't spend a mere $500 on some of the things folks around here play, but to each his own.

Tom "player of good 'new' and old uncool tubas" B.