TubeNet

There have been several threads that have dealt with this subject but no necessarily from this angle. Several of you have blatantly accused Colleges/Universities of being 'businesses' and uselessly encouraging students to pursue a music degree when there is no job outcome at the end.

While I will agree that there is no jobs outcome and that colleges do want to attract students, shouldn't the student be the one held responsible for his actions and not the college? In this day and age (lets say the past decade for argument's sake) most Americans have access to internet and are easily able to find out information through Google. Just a quick look at this forum or any other music forum reveals that there are not 10 jobs waiting for you after convocation. Shouldn't a student who is willing to undertake a 4-year $50 000* College Education be aware of that before starting his education. Isn't it his/her responsibility to do their own research and come to his/her own conclusions as to whether it is really worth it?

Are schools really "preying" on students, trying to force a useless degree down their throats? Or are students just simply taking on a project without thinking of the long term consequences?

What do you think?



*(Rough estimate, for convenience's sake let's just say that tuition and Living expenses at up to 12000$ a year (that is if your not living at home))

I think you're more than accurate.

Again, it goes with this (unfortunate) culture of blaming someone else.

It seems that today, NOONE takes responsibility for their own actions. There is always another scapegoat.

As a teacher, I see this attitude a lot. I see it in many of my students, and then I see it in many of those students' parents.

I think, in the end, it's the students decision. If you have such a HUGE quantity of students wanting to learn a subject, why should a university say "no"? If people want it, give it to them. A university is a place to learn, not necessarily a place that gets you a job. You can go get an engineering degree and still be jobless - yes.....the likelihood of getting a job is higher...

Again...people like to blame everyone else. If you picked a degree path that leads you jobless (and presumably upset) that was YOUR fault for not researching it well enough. If you're willing to take that risk and understand the risk, then fine. But enough with this blaming everything else.

Funny thing is, it's always seemed to me that most schools do ALL they can to discourage you from being a music major in the first place.

For your enjoyment. Please comment away!

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/wh ... music.html" target="_blank

tclements wrote:For your enjoyment. Please comment away!

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/wh ... music.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

Agreed. This is the kind of 'resource' I was referring to in my OP. Many other players are giving their excellent advice on careers for music majors. Doug Yeo, on his web page, states that it is easier to be State Governor than to be a Bass Trombonist in a full-time orchestra. (We can extend this to tubaists also.)

The notion that music professors are, at any level, thinking "I'll accept/encourage this student because I owe it to my college/university/conservatory to generate tuition revenue" is silly. The skeptics out there will likely reply that the M.O. then becomes, "I'll accept/encourage this student because I need to protect my job by having a full studio." This may happen, but less frequently than some might think.

The bottom line is, we live in a society that is driven by free will. What one chooses for his or her profession has nothing to do with what Professor X at Y University wants them to do-- the decision rests entirely in the hands of the individual.

Not everyone who studies music has aspirations to perform professionally. Some students really do want to be GREAT music teachers. (Resist the urge to say "Why? So they can teach another generation of unemployable musicians?" By doing this, you discredit what an integral part of the human experience music is. For further reading: http://amandamichellewhite.wordpress.co ... servatory/) Some students pursue a liberal arts education that includes music, because it is part of who they are and they choose to include it in their broad education. And then there are the students who wish to perform for a living, whether it is in an orchestra, military band, chamber music group, soloist, hip-hop group, jazz quartet, jug band or any other outlet for which John Q Public will buy a ticket.

When a student comes for an audition where I work, the conversation that follows the playing portion of the audition is just as (if not more) important than the audition is. It is important for me to assess the student's objectives and then to determine whether my school is the right fit for them. If a students wants to teach, then we owe to him or her to help them be the best elementary/middle school/high school teacher they can be. If a student wants to be a music therapist, we need to prepare him/her for success in that field. If they just want to play because they love to play, we owe it to them to make the performance of their horn as enriching and enjoyable as possible. Knowing the goal is key.

Obviously, many people who read this forum have performance aspirations. This is not an easy path. I always advise the 18 year old freshman who wishes to pursue a performance degree that they need to work hard enough to play me under the table when they leave, because I represent the minimum level of threat to their livelihood that they will encounter on the audition trail. Many students have taken this challenge and leave here playing better than I play. As a teacher, this is my proudest moment. If the students insists that a performance degree is the only one that they will pursue and I think that the student has enough potential to meet this goal, it is then incumbent upon me to help them get there. If an auditioning student does not appear to have this potential, I do not accept them on those terms.

Are their enough "traditional" jobs for the zillions of incredibly talented players that are floating around out there? No, there aren't. Are there enough jobs in the NBA for every college kid who puts on a uniform? Nope. Does that make what they do- striving to pursue a lofty goal- less "legit"? I don't think so. Each of us possesses a desire to pursue the thing that brings us the greatest amount of joy. Not all of us possess the drive to make it happen. Hard work trumps talent any day of the week--- but those who work hard AND have a high degree of innate talent will be the ones who succeed.

Getting back to the topic of the thread, the question of "Are Colleges Really to Blame?" is specious. Colleges, and their faculty, do not choose for students what they will study. The function of a college education is to provide the student with the most information in his or her field as possible, hopefully allowing the student to have the deepest understanding of the discipline that the student's correlative effort will allow. Hopefully, the thorough presentation of knowledge, the challenges extended and met, and the student's work ethic will combine to be enough to find them meaningful employment at the end of the line.

There are no guarantees... the field is tough and opportunities are diminishing. A responsible student and/or his or her responsible parental units should know this going in. Are there some things that should change about the way that music degrees are administered in a changing world? Absolutely! But that is a different topic for a different day!

Sorry for the rant.
DZ

I TOTALLY concur with Prof. Zerkel.

Take the lessons, play your heart out, and find a way to make a living, too. You're in college, and they have lots of choices.

tclements wrote:For your enjoyment. Please comment away!

http://tonyclem.blogspot.com/2011/03/wh ... music.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Hey, it's a great rant!

Kids these days are the offspring of baby boomers, who were told from birth to pursue what they love to do. It is really rather self-indulgent, compared to past generations and eras, where children were taught their father's trade, or endentured as young children into some other trade as an apprentice. People had absolutely no expectation of deciding how they would earn their keep on the basis of what they enjoyed doing or what seemed fun to them.

Here's a conundrum: People are paid well to do 1.) what other people don't know how to do, and 2.) what other people don't want to do. That's why Tony's plumber is well-paid. Being a good plumber isn't that easy, and being willing to roll around in other peoples' muck isn't that desirable. Plumbers go home dirty, sometimes get called out in the middle of the night, and have to know how to make things work that were poorly constructed in the first place. And they have to do it with one of those demanding baby boomers breathing down their necks. They are needed by people who can't do without them, so they get well paid.

Musicians are doing what they love, and what they would do for free if they didn't have to worry about money (until they become jaded, that is). They are paying a college to teach them how to pursue their hobby. Problem is, many people know how to make music for themselves, at least to the extent that it is psychologically necessary. And lots of people want to do it. Thus, musicians are not well paid, and often not paid at all.

I have heard college professors say that pursuing what we love means we'll do it every waking hour and become so good at it that we'll find a way to get paid to do it. That's a good argument for some. But few people at age 18 have a well-formed idea of what they love to the point they can be that devoted to it. Thus, they do not achieve exceptional skills worthy of being paid in a tight market. This is not an easy path. But it is possible for some--somebody out there is getting paid to do things so arcane that most of us don't even know what it is or care.

So, here are the choices: 1.) do what you love, but with the warning that your love must be total if you expect to make a living doing it. You have to be single-minded in pursuit of not just excellence, but superiority over everyone else. If it turns out that talent is required and you don't have it, too bad.

Or 2.) Love what you do. We decide to do this; it is an act of will. Happy people have made this choice for thousands of years. This path is sometimes only slightly easier than the above.

Education is not about love, and it's not about jobs. It's about becoming a person who can contribute to society not just with work, but as whole people who can create a whole society. Educated people (who are really educated, and not merely trained) can usually find a way to make their way through life, though there are never any promises. As it turns out, the lack of promise is part of what drives us to decide to love what we do enough to get good at it.

Blaming colleges for not providing job training is indeed unfair. That is not their role. Blaming them for not providing a good, broad education is fair, and it happens as much as anything because of pandering to those who insist that education should be job training.

Rick "who provides training for a living, often to the undereducated who therefore cannot be trained" Denney

The situation is not confined to music majors. There are a heck of a lot of MBA's out there looking for gainful employment, too! It seems to be getting to the point that you'll need an MBA to work on the counter at Eddie Bauer.

There is a 'commuter college' just west of here has an enrollment of over 10,000 that offers mostly worthless MBA's and liberal arts degrees. I honestly don't know what the kids are thinking.

David Zerkel wrote: Getting back to the topic of the thread, the question of "Are Colleges Really to Blame?" is specious. Colleges, and their faculty, do not choose for students what they will study. The function of a college education is to provide the student with the most information in his or her field as possible, hopefully allowing the student to have the deepest understanding of the discipline that the student's correlative effort will allow. Hopefully, the thorough presentation of knowledge, the challenges extended and met, and the student's work ethic will combine to be enough to find them meaningful employment at the end of the line.

Sorry for the rant.
DZ

The question was intended as a Rhetorical one. I picked it, essentially, for it's sensationalism. I concur that colleges (a by extension, the Faculty, staff, directors. etc) do not force students to attend. Everyone has free will.

It was meant as an answer to several threads, that put the blame on the colleges and their newly appointed adjunct faculty with DMAs that lure students unnecessarily. (these aren't my words and they are used in many posts on this board)

I just felt the flip slide of the coined, one that puts the responsibility in the hands of the student not the school, hadn't been argued.

I have found, with some exceptions, that your profs in music school will take good care of you and give you good advice, even if it is tough advice. They are not there to steer dollars to the school.

If anything, do whatever you can to find the magic barrier between the school's faculty and the school's administration. I think you will find there are generally quiet wars going on between the faculty and administration of just about any school.

My own alma mater is a music school with some legendary faculty and was an unbelievably positive experience for me as a musician and a student. On the flip side, I found out recently that my university's administration was marking its non-contributing alumni as either dead or missing because it boosted the overall percentage of donating alumni in the books and boosts the rating of the university (which you can logically jump it to the increased draw on new students). This was a business decision and they know it is based on false information.

How do I know this? I recently went in to my alumni center to get a new library card for expanded access to their music library. They marked me dead almost two years ago, even though I have communicated with them in the past and continue to receive mail begging for money. I went back again later and I was still "dead".

to be honest graduating with just about any degree will do well for you no matter what line of work you end up in. And right now I would rather be a music grad trying to get a job than a newly barred lawyer. The mountain of debt aside, there are way more lawyers than there are jobs these days.

I think this is a consequence of the fact that our country runs on money.
Nothing to read here... on to the next topic.
because I don't want to read about school and debt for the umpteenth time while getting my degree

There is a lot of outstanding information in the above posts. Young, aspiring musicians would do well to read them, and heed them. I am an individual who chose to become a music major. I was, of course, too young to fully understand my choice, however I am quite happy I made that choice. I went in without an expectation of becoming a millionaire. That part has played out just as I imagined at 18 yrs. of age. I began my college years as a music ed. major, with hopes of becoming a school band director. After a while in college, I considered going the performance route, but decided against it. I don't think I was as good as Prof. Zerkel, muchless better.

I became a school band director. I then got caught up in the "inmates running the asylum" that Tony describes. This was tough. I worked hard as a band director. I had many difficult times and a few very wonderful ones. I did the best I could to work at band jobs that didn't require my entire life. That left me time to play tuba.

Those who choose music as their major would do well to go in with their eyes wide open. I try to pass this information along to the youngster I teach. It is up to them to process it. Although the colleges may sometimes put pressure on students, it is the students' responsibility to make their own choices. If they choose poorly, they only have themselves to blame.

k001k47 wrote:I think this is a consequence of the fact that our country runs on money.
Nothing to read here... on to the next topic.
because I don't want to read about school and debt for the umpteenth time while getting my degree

Please note that no one is forcing you to EVER visit TubeNet. Bury your head in the sand, if you wish. I really don't care. Read whatever you want to. In fact, if you'll look for it, I'm sure you can find something that tells you what a wonderful person you are, how smart you are, and what wonderful choices you are making.

By the way, you can certainly tell me/us when there is "nothing to read here," or when to move "on to the next topic," however don't expect that we will follow your directions, either.

TubaRay wrote:

k001k47 wrote:I think this is a consequence of the fact that our country runs on money.
Nothing to read here... on to the next topic.
because I don't want to read about school and debt for the umpteenth time while getting my degree

Please note that no one is forcing you to EVER visit TubeNet. Bury your head in the sand, if you wish. I really don't care. Read whatever you want to. In fact, if you'll look for it, I'm sure you can find something that tells you what a wonderful person you are, how smart you are, and what wonderful choices you are making.

By the way, you can certainly tell me/us when there is "nothing to read here," or when to move "on to the next topic," however don't expect that we will follow your directions, either.

If I were a masochist, I would enjoy the way the way these topics unfold, but who is that nefarious? I know the consequences of studying music. It's something you don't really want to think about: like mistreating the body (eating poorly, self destructive behavior, etc). Rarely are the rewards of studying music discussed, and I admire that you mentioned both sides of the coin. I have had friends find jobs right out of college. I have had friends struggle to find jobs, and mention to heed the arduous nature of going into music education. I have had a family member tell me going back to school to earn his music degree was the best decision he's ever made.

Certainly, I feel anything I mention will be held against me; this is the nature of TubeNet (and pretty much the world). Disagree with me, I don't mind. Everyone has their opinion. Deride me, I may feel a little disappointed, but TubeNet will continue to function as usual. A bit of a microcosm of what we're discussing, wouldn't you say?

I apologize that my previous post was condescending and dismissive. It wasn't completely serious.
I mean no offense to anyone who has posted in this thread. There's valuable info here.

I study music because I enjoy it. A fat income would be nice. To graduate and pay off debt quickly would be nice. To have a job waiting for me would be nice. I understand that things like this are not served to everyone on a silver platter: one must be truly ignorant to believe they are.

Majoring in music is indeed a difficult path to walk, but someone has to do it. I'd be happy if, at the end of the road, I played the role of that band director that inspired many aspiring musicians. Then, I'll probably be the grumpy old man telling youngsters that majoring in music is the dumbest decision one could make.

knuxie wrote:There's a term that hasn't been used here yet...COUNSELING. Do the kids these days still see a counselor before even deciding what to major in? And do these counselors still have the innate ability to let these students know if the major they are choosing is the right choice and why? Just wondering...

Ken F.

I was going to write a typically wordy response to this thread, but then got control of myself and refrained. However, you have put your finger on a MAJOR issue here. In the old days (1) you got a quite decent education in middle/junior high/high school, and (2) a part of that (as I recall starting in about 7-th grade) was significant time with things like aptitude tests, presentations by your guidance counselor on various careers and types of careers (and their requirements), and a significant amount of 1-1 time with that counselor.

This doesn't happen any longer. The "guidance counselors" have now become social workers and devote virtually all of their time to the "problem" kids. Then you get to college, and it's nobody's job to teach you about jobs and job markets (which they don't know about anyway because 90% of them have never had anything besides academic positions).

I could tell some good stories along these lines, but I'll refrain. It's really not ALL the fault of the kids. There's a real hole in what the schools are delivering when it comes to career and job orientation and preparation.

To the "Professional Loser"(above)(& yes I'm only joking), I would like to address most of this post.

I very much appreciated you most recent post on this thread. I realized that you were most likely at least partially joking about moving on. It sounds to me as if you are not one of the "victims." I'm not sure there are any real victims, but I am referring to people who major in music either because they are misled by some college, or they are misled by their lack of knowledge of the real world of music. Actually, it sounds like you may have a good head on your shoulders. It also sounds like you have a pretty realistic view of what the future may hold.

Your first post in this thread came across to me as being a bit disrespectful. You most recent one, though somewhat pointed and frank, seemed much more respectful. You are correct that posting on TubeNet can get all kinds of responses. This is why I jumped on your's. I believe most of the TNFJ are good people. They are here to share information and to have a good time. There are others who will not only disagree, but seem pretty mean-spirited, as well. If my tone was too harsh, I apologize for that. My reaction was primarily based on someone trying to say that the discussion was pointless, when I didn't(and don't) believe it is.

Thanks for clarifying things. I hope you'll stick around. Maybe even read some things you disagree with. I have met many of the people who regularly post. Others, I have not. Both groups have people whom I consider to be my friends. I have learned a lot from.

ghmerrill wrote:
I could tell some good stories along these lines, but I'll refrain. It's really not ALL the fault of the kids. There's a real hole in what the schools are delivering when it comes to career and job orientation and preparation.

Why is it the counselors fault they have to focus on an increasingly difficult group of "underachievers" and "problem" students?

The TRUE issue is about proper parenting COMBINED with quality educational guidance. So you're right, it's not ALL the fault of the kids, but you can't shift the blame to the school either. The whole issue is very complex - again, as I said before, our society seems to like to blame everyone except the "poor, poor little helpless student" or their parents.

So no, colleges aren't to blame. Student's aren't entirely to blame; parents aren't entirely to blame, and neither are schools. It's a cycle. If parents provided more guidance, it would lessen the overworked school counselors so they can spend more time with more students. The students would then be able to make more informed decision, and so on.

If we want our children to make educated choice, we need to do something about it. Not pass it on to someone else. Don't except everyone else to do the "work".

I teach at a high school in Washington State. Students in Washington are required to complete a culminating project and a plan for both for their time in HS and after they graduate. This 'High School and Beyond" plan begins when a student is in the 9th grade and includes a portfolio which has a sampling of student work from all four years of HS as well as career development information based on what the student is planning to do after graduation.

Here's a description of how this works at the state level:

http://www.k12.wa.us/GraduationRequirem ... fault.aspx" target="_blank"

Individual school districts may vary slightly due to local conditions but those examples are the basic ideas of the graduating requirements.

At least in my school, each year, all students must conduct a conference with their parents describing what they had done in the preceding school year and what they are planning for the rest of HS. These are run by the students themselves and the teachers are there as facilitators. The students do the talking and the parents do the listening. We hound both the students and the parents until most all come in. Out of about 300 students, only about 5 students have parents who refuse to come in. For those students, they present their portfolio to community volunteers. Our school is in a rural farming community and about 45% of the students are on the 'free and reduced lunch' program. Last school year, we graduated 80 students. 72% of those kids are continuing their education after HS and 4 are entering the military. 24 are going to four-year college and 30 are planning junior/community college or vocational school.

Just thought I would give this example that, at least at my school, if you don't know what you are doing when you are out of high school and don't know if you can support yourself, it's your own fault.