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The top brass instrument in Italy, France, BeNeLux, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and the US used to be the Eb flugelhorn. Still when I started on brass in 1960 the top line was played on a rotary flugelhorn, which was called pikkolo.

In the context of the New Mexico March I wanted to hear the Norwegian Valdres Marsch by Johannes Hansen, which has some stylistic elements in common with the NMM. I found a quite new Swedish video, where the opening theme is played on a pikkolo exactly like the ones I played together with 50 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp-lhRkLVlE

Even the lack in legato fits the archaic style.

The thread on the NMM may be valid and relevant from a US perspective, where the tunes incorporated are known. I don’t know these tunes and I hear something very different, namely a march which to me doesn’t sound American at all. To me it is a not fully digested mix of Fucik and some Russian and, as said Norwegian, elements. The latter likely more general pentatonic folklore than specific Norwegian. The performance linked to in the thread even has the element I detest the most in the Viennese Deutsch- und Hochmeister style: the tempo drag. A march shall be kept strictly in tempo, or it is not a march at all.

Klaus

I wonder how that young lad is playing such an old instrument? All the other players seem to be using modern. Maybe it belonged to his father, or grandfather. Good to see in use anyway.

Sounds brighter than a modern flugelhorn to me.

I'd like to see (or play in) a brass band with all-rotary instruments one time, including a Eb rotary soprano.
Could be interesting sound-wise!

In one of the other videos from that concert he plays a modern instrument.

Sweden has an old tradition of 6-piece brass ensembles: Eb & Bb flugelhorns, alto horn, two valve trombones, and bass tuba.

As I understand it, the mounted band of the Swedish royal guard has mostly drafted players but for a kernel of 6 professional players. These six play the old instruments and arrangements for royal parties.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:The thread on the NMM may be valid and relevant from a US perspective, where the tunes incorporated are known. I don’t know these tunes and I hear something very different, namely a march which to me doesn’t sound American at all. To me it is a not fully digested mix of Fucik and some Russian and, as said Norwegian, elements. The latter likely more general pentatonic folklore than specific Norwegian.

The pentatonic scale in the "Indian" section of New Mexico March is at best a parody of the portrayal of Indians when dancing around a fire. Lots of feathers and warpaint, etc., like in the old movies, and probably more borrowed from the Cherokee nation than from the southwester tribes. Most music in southwestern tribes (particularly Navajo) weren't of that sort, and we sung inside a hogan (dwelling) as part of a healing ritual. These rituals were often called "sings" because that is their main purpose for music. The drumbeat in a pattern of four with the first emphasized is also a parody. The music I've heard maintains a steady beat with no periodic emphasis. The tunes are pentatonic, like folk-song traditions from a lot of places--I think I could extract something quite Vaughan Williamsian from the scale they use. But the authentic stuff has nothing like the tonal complexity of the Sousa's parody, which is more western than Indian.

Here's a group sing at an inter-tribal pow-wow that will provide a much better idea of Indian music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9BN7atOD1s

Klaus, thanks for the link with the young man playing that old instrument. Very interesting, and he did play it well too. There are still some of the old guys that enjoy playing those type of instruments, but I was very positively surprised to hear that young man playing so well. Let us hope there will be a renaissance for the old style brass ensemble. Maybe if the chinese take up manufacturing...

imperialbari wrote:...Sweden has an old tradition of 6-piece brass ensembles: Eb & Bb flugelhorns, alto horn, two valve trombones, and bass tuba.

However, I wonder about that you write flugelhorns. Do you mean the same as in swedish is Eb & Bb kornett or is it another instrument that is very close to the swedish kornett? Btw, there was an even smaller, kornett, in Ab.

Neat instrument, and nice piece! Thanks for sharing!

And like I usually do, when I find a new piece of music, I go on to listen to about 10 different versions of it in a row (really helps me "get" the piece).

Love it. Wonder if I get convince my anti-March band director to add it to the rep. any time soon? (I shouldn't say "anti-March"...we do play the marches in Holst pieces... )

KiltieTuba wrote:I think the 'he' in the first video is really a 'she' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E623SOQy ... re=related" target="_blank" target="_blank

It may be so, the hair style of young persons today... Whichever, the person playing plays nice.

Lingon wrote:

KiltieTuba wrote:I think the 'he' in the first video is really a 'she' - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E623SOQy ... re=related" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

It may be so, the hair style of young persons today... Whichever, the person playing plays nice.

100% sure it's a she. Watch until the end when she stands for applause.

I must admit to having used 'he', but the give away is the bandana issued to all the feminine members in the indoors concert. I like what the string bass player does with hers.

Klaus

Lingon wrote:Klaus, thanks for the link with the young man playing that old instrument. Very interesting, and he did play it well too. There are still some of the old guys that enjoy playing those type of instruments, but I was very positively surprised to hear that young man playing so well. Let us hope there will be a renaissance for the old style brass ensemble. Maybe if the chinese take up manufacturing...

imperialbari wrote:...Sweden has an old tradition of 6-piece brass ensembles: Eb & Bb flugelhorns, alto horn, two valve trombones, and bass tuba.

However, I wonder about that you write flugelhorns. Do you mean the same as in swedish is Eb & Bb kornett or is it another instrument that is very close to the swedish kornett? Btw, there was an even smaller, kornett, in Ab.

All languages have odd terms for instruments (I guess). The Germans call a rotary cornet for Piston, because that is their imitation of the French instrument. Only old German makers were better at making rotary valves than piston valves. Here an Alexander #48 cornet from their 1976 catalogue (whole catalogue in my galleries):
I have seen videos with an old-style Swedish sextet, where the Eb soprano, the Bb soprano, and the Eb alto all were flugelhorns. You may traditionally call the instrument played by the young lady in the Valdres videos for a cornet, but, sorry, it never was a cornet. The bell profile clearly defines this instrument as a flugelhorn. Even a representative of the old traditional style with wide open stack and throat and very little flaring opposed to as well the French/English/American (piston) and the later German styles. The American Civil War era Eb sopranos also were flugelhorns. The only American piston flugelhorn model with this huge almost flareless bell to my knowledge was one of Benge’s models.

I must have unsubscribed to this thread by accident. At least I only rediscovered it, when I wanted to refer a UK-based correspondent to it. Since I started this thread I have received some music, which I cannot distribute in its original form for copyright reason. However it taught me that I have made a spelling error in my original posting. I am fairly sure I have seen the spelling ‘pikkolo’ somewhere. And Google has 621.000 returns for that spelling. One entry reminded that this is also our term for bellboy. Still this older, but still younger than me, Danish score has the spelling of piccolo for the Eb soprano.

Klaus

Just to tell newer TN readers that I am obsessed with precision in terminology:

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jul2001 ... 61604.html

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jan2002 ... 80533.html

Our Civil War band has three Eb soprano cornets and one Eb flugelhorn in its stable (most owned by individuals rather than the band). Two of the cornets were used in the war. The flugelhorn is a reproduction. There was a mix of cornets and flugels as lead soprano instruments in that era. Personally, I like the mellowness of the flugel sound.

Photos of your CW-era Eb sopranos would be most welcome! High resolution photos sent to the address down the page linked to first would be very much appreciated:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... PhotosIII/

And here a link for an auction over a Belgian Eb soprano flugelhorn (I am not involved on either side of the transaction):

http://www.ebay.de/itm/250891380965

Klaus

bort wrote:100% sure it's a she. Watch until the end when she stands for applause.

Thanks, I will look a bit closer before saying something in the future, I was most impressed by the playing and the instrument... Now, the young person plays very nice on the old instrument. Better?!

imperialbari wrote: ...All languages have odd terms for instruments (I guess)...
...I have seen videos with an old-style Swedish sextet, where the Eb soprano, the Bb soprano, and the Eb alto all were flugelhorns...

Aha, that clear things up. It seems to be a language thing. Here in Sweden the cornet is called kornett, and the old, as you say, flugelhorn is also called kornett. Only the 'modern' flugelhorn is called flugelhorn. In the classic swedish sextet they used to be called Eb and Bb kornett and alto horn.
I googled 'flygelhorn' and up came a page from Thomann cyberstore with the title "Flygelhorn(kornett)" where both perinet and rotary flugels were to be found.
Anyway, it is very good that these old instruments are not forgotten and that even young persons discover their existence. There is also a forgotten gold mine in those old black books with music, handwritten arrangements, for different sizes of those old instruments.

Lingon wrote:

bort wrote:100% sure it's a she. Watch until the end when she stands for applause.

Thanks, I will look a bit closer before saying something in the future, I was most impressed by the playing and the instrument... Now, the young person plays very nice on the old instrument. Better?!

Well, I have to admit I was wrong at first too. And based only on the first video I had some clever comment all prepared about stereotypes of Swedish women all being tall and blonde. Glad I saved myself that embarrassment...oh wait...

Rick Denney wrote: The drumbeat in a pattern of four with the first emphasized is also a parody. The music I've heard maintains a steady beat with no periodic emphasis.

My part calls for a steady 4 beats per measure (all the same pitch, for some ridiculously long number of measures) with no "periodic emphasis". It is tempting for someone brought up on Saturday afternoon Cowboys and Indians movies to ADD a strong emphasis on "one", or throw in a different pitch to break up the unspeakably monotony of 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,...,1,1,1,1 - but that's not what (my version of) the music calls for.

No accents - just 400 quarter notes in a row, metronomic and sleep inducing, all the very same pitch, weight, articulation, and length. Oh yeah...no obvious place to BREATHE, either!

We *have* drums - can't *they* play the "drumbeat"?

Sousa on peyote.

Soprano Eb Cornet not unlikely made by Ahlberg & Ohlsson

Lots of nice pics in link

You cannot prevent anybody from using a wrong terminology. Still instruments with that open bell profile are flugelhorns.

Klaus