TubeNet

Here's a topic for discussion...

If you own a rotary valve tuba, do you like the rotary valves on your particular tuba? (ie. quick enough, don't stick, action, etc.) If so, what make and model tuba do you own that has these great rotary valves?

Mike Milnarik

My experience until this summer was always top action and front action piston I won an auction unexpectedly with a low bid on what I think is either a Cerveny or Amati 4 valve Bb tuba from a seller in Germany.

It was my first encounter with a rotary valve tuba and I was impressed by the valves despite being a cheap tuba even when new and having raw brass I think rotors it still was quick quite and intriguing to play.

Now I understand what French horn players have known for a long time they are easier to keep right and if the quality is good enough are probably quicker than a piston.
I look forward to testing the above satement this month as I have committed to buy a Eb/F travel tuba with rotary valves with my closest dealer delivery hopefully from the middle of the month on.
Not sure I would like a rotary valve with a string linkage on a tuba I base this on engineering concerns rather than experience.
I am also hoping to see if there is any truth to the valves are better if all the rotors turn the same way the travel tuba's valves are split in the middle as are the Bb tuba's I am assuming that due to the travel tubas tighter wrap that any air resistance that may be caused by the different directions of rotation will be amplified as I could not feel any difference in resistance on the Bb tuba.
I know that there is a following for modifying the rotors to all turn the same direction I am hoping that it proves to either all in the mind or too small an improvement to be needed.
Either way as the travel tuba is being bought as a novelty and to introduce my youngest to the tuba with the chance of being good enough for me to use on certain gigs and ensembles I won't be modifying the travel tuba

I was won over to rotary valves going to many orchestral concerts and noting how often the brass with piston valves (trumpets and tuba) have valve sticking problems and how rarely do the French horns. It is now 6 years since I had my first rotary valve tuba and since then have owned Meinl-Weston, B&S, Cerveny, Haag and more recently Chinese Huashen tubas with them and can truthfully say that the number of valve sticks I have experienced could be counted on the fingers of one hand - very rare indeed!

Rotary valves if in good order require very little maintenance. I flush through with warm soapy water once every 6-12 month to clear out any internal dirt and oil bearings once month. I only oil internally by dripping oil down pipe if I feel they are running a bit slow, or I can feel some resistance. All of them have had acceptably fast rotors, although the best was surprisingly on the Cerveny 701 Kaiser BBb I owned. That had nickel silver valves, which I understand is the best material for rotors.

Now back using piston valves on JinBao 700 EEb, I think there is little difference in speed against rotors - my fingers and brain are more the restricting factor. I think it is easier to slur and trill cleanly with pistons - but the minimal maintenance and reliability of rotors still make them my preference.

I have 2 rotary tubas, and both have very good rotary valves. The Miraphone is about 25 years old and has been used a lot over its lifetime. The valve linkages are nice and worn-in, and just feel like home. The Cerveny is much newer (5 years old?) and its valves are still new and nicely tight. They feel a little different from each other, but both are great... slight edge to the Cerveny though, on account of comfort.

Beyond that, I think that every new German, Swiss, and Czech rotary tuba I've tried in the past 5 years or so has had outstanding rotary valves. I don't think there's a lot of secrets about how to make good valves/linkages anymore, so I wouldn't expect much (bad) variation in new tubas. Older ones... who konws!

Another thought:

I typically do not like the 5th valve on rotary tubas though. I have parts from Miraphone to replace the linkage on my 188 with the more modern "bar" style lever, which was good for me on my 1291. But, I still wonder a bit if I might be a good candidate for a LH 5th valve setup? Something about thumb valves just never seemed quite right to me, and I sure ain't pulling any slides on my 188 that often to occupy my left hand very much. Also, it seems like LH 5th valves have a really short throw, another positive? Something for me to consider...

Love the ones on my Alex Ebb. Silent,quick and noiseless. The horn is about 20 years and I purchased it from Buligary (Sp.).Al

I play mostly on piston tubas but I also own what I think is the very best style of rotary tuba... the Marzan 'slant-rotor' with the original string action.

Regarding sousaphone68's comment about the string linkage possibly being inferior with respect to engineering... you need to get your hands on one of these horns and try it for yourself. Possibly more common would be the Walter Sear string-action tubas that were also marketed in the early 70's.

I've owned the Walter Sear horns with the string-action but did not spent nearly the time with them as I have with the Marzan. The string-action on the Marzan is super fast and smooth. From an engineering perspective... the strings afford a 100% harmonic motion as compared to solid linkage. There is no 'fast and slow' period in the rotation of the rotor and the moments of inertia seem to remain constant except for the instants where the stop arm strikes the bumpers. Also... the paddle height can be usually be adjusted without bending the paddle assemblies.

While we are discussing string-operated rotors... I prefer the black 'fishing line' style of cord that Allied sells over the yellow stuff that is purchased from Yamaha. To me... the black cord is both stronger and more flexible than the yellow. I've never broken a string where it was applied correctly. Properly tensioning the cord and not over-tightening the screws that hold the cord will be your friend to insure longevity.

Yes, I like the rotary valves on the 282 that I own now and I liked the rotary valves on the 186 that I had for 21 years. I also own a 1291 piston horn. The valves on the 282 are quicker than the 186 was I guess due to the smaller size.
Rick

I like all of my rotors - of the 20 in play, the tightest are the 184's, the fastest are the 155's, the most spring tension the 163's. Only recently have I ever had issues with them sticking - both the 164 & 155 due to need of cleaning after periods of heavy use. Oil is a temporary solution, but once cleaned, they work extremely well. A much better track record than my experiences with pistons which required more oiling, cleaning, guide maintenance, and general repair.

This is why I enjoy Tubenet.Dan's informed explanation has opened my eyes to string linkages as I said my rotary experience is very limited up till now and my aversion to string was a mechanical engineers like of bent metal and observations of the horn section attacking their rotors with a scissors. Unfortunately my buying feast is just about finished I have one thing left on my wish list and so won't be buying a string operated rotary valve tuba but I am going to have a long look at some bass trombones in the band that have string linkages as there is a nice King bass trombone going a begging in the band.
Thanks for information

I started tuba on a Conn 20J - which I enjoyed. I played a Yamaha euphonium for years. I ran across my Mirafone 186 this year and now do not look at piston horns. I even sold my 20J. The 186 is from the 60's but the s linkage is smooth, fast, and quiet.

sousaphone68 wrote: Unfortunately my buying feast is just about finished I have one thing left on my wish list and so won't be buying a string operated rotary valve tuba but I am going to have a long look at some bass trombones in the band that have string linkages as there is a nice King bass trombone going a begging in the band.
Thanks for information

I played bass trombone until about 3 years ago. I had a Bach Strad 50B3 converted from mechanical to string linkage. It rocked. I had it done for well under $200. So don't limit the bass trombone you choose based on whether or not it has already got the linkage.

Yes!
4 Willson Rotax valves, they are magnificient on my BBb tuba!

Also the Rudolf meinl valves on the horns I played were most impressive.

I LOVE rotary tubas. Right now, the horn with the best valves is my Bruckner. Next the Hirsbrunner HB-2. The Willson valves are very heavy and not as fast as I'd like, but smooth and positive feeling. The 184 valves are a bit clunky. I can't comment on the Dehmal valves as that horn is so old, who knows, but I like the valves on my Alexander 156 (old S shaped arms).

rodgeman wrote:

sousaphone68 wrote: Unfortunately my buying feast is just about finished I have one thing left on my wish list and so won't be buying a string operated rotary valve tuba but I am going to have a long look at some bass trombones in the band that have string linkages as there is a nice King bass trombone going a begging in the band.
Thanks for information

I played bass trombone until about 3 years ago. I had a Bach Strad 50B3 converted from mechanical to string linkage. It rocked. I had it done for well under $200. So don't limit the bass trombone you choose based on whether or not it has already got the linkage.

The choice is limited to one, a King model not known at the moment as it is currently in the bands storeroom looking for a new player I have to request permission to borrow it from the committee tomorrow at rehearsal.

I prefer rotors in general, though I have played piston horns in the past.

My Miraphone 181 F has the hands-down best rotary valves I have ever played. Perfect mix of solid landing without feeling too light or short on the stroke. Trilling on the horn has zero valve noise or interruption of air. Sounds more like a bass clarinet trill!

My Neptune has some very nice rotors on it as well, but not quite as nice as the 181. It's a fairly new horn to me so I am probably just still getting used to it. On a BIG horn though, the rotary valves are much nicer than the piston BATs I have played. As always YMMV.

sousaphone68 wrote:

rodgeman wrote:

sousaphone68 wrote: Unfortunately my buying feast is just about finished I have one thing left on my wish list and so won't be buying a string operated rotary valve tuba but I am going to have a long look at some bass trombones in the band that have string linkages as there is a nice King bass trombone going a begging in the band.
Thanks for information

I played bass trombone until about 3 years ago. I had a Bach Strad 50B3 converted from mechanical to string linkage. It rocked. I had it done for well under $200. So don't limit the bass trombone you choose based on whether or not it has already got the linkage.

The choice is limited to one, a King model not known at the moment as it is currently in the bands storeroom looking for a new player I have to request permission to borrow it from the committee tomorrow at rehearsal.

Cool. I hope you enjoy it. Kings are good horns. I played a King 4B with string linkage before my Bach. That is where I got the idea.

My Miraphone 186 valves are worn and a bit noisy (not the linkages--I've replaced those). I use a little heavier oil which helps with the noise, but gives them a slightly mushy feel. The springs are set with as little preload as possible to make them light. On feels the the little bit of mushiness primarily on the return.

The B&S valves are fine. But my technique seems just that tiny bit crisper on the Yamaha F tuba.

The valves on my Vespro (VMI stencil) had a nasty habit of becoming locked by dried spit if I didn't play it every day.

Rick "who does not obsess over valve type" Denney

chronolith wrote:My Miraphone 181 F has the hands-down best rotary valves I have ever played. Perfect mix of solid landing without feeling too light or short on the stroke. Trilling on the horn has zero valve noise or interruption of air. Sounds more like a bass clarinet trill!

Shoot, well now I really want to scrap up some more money to buy this!

Rick Denney wrote:The valves on my Vespro (VMI stencil) had a nasty habit of becoming locked by dried spit if I didn't play it every day.

Perhaps that's the German "encouragement" to get you to practice every day.

I like them all all fast but different...Willson F has rotax valves like a machine. HB-6 short throw big paddles. PT 20 long throw less definite feel had unibal linkages installed