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well ..... A lot of other people . It seems to me that the theme for Darth Vader sounds much like Mars from The Planets by Holst.

While Williams clearly has his own music and musical style I swear I hear elements of other composers in his writings. I'm not complaining or trying to pick a fight here. I am just wondering if anyone else has noticed this. Not that this is all bad . I couldn't think of a better way to represent Vader that with something that sounds like music that was meant to be about "The Bringer of War".

oldbandnerd wrote:theme for Darth Vader

Imperial March?

John Williams is a smart guy- he borrows from everyone, especially Prokofiev.

Recently I found out the melody and harmony for the first seven beats of the love theme from "Superman" are taken from the middle of the finale of "Death and Transfiguration". Parts of the atonal sections of "Close Encounters" sound a lot like Ligeti.

I don't hear the connection between the Imperial March and Mars, though.

well ..... A lot of other people . It seems to me that the theme for Darth Vader sounds much like Mars from The Planets by Holst.

While Williams clearly has his own music and musical style I swear I hear elements of other composers in his writings. I'm not complaining or trying to pick a fight here. I am just wondering if anyone else has noticed this. Not that this is all bad . I couldn't think of a better way to represent Vader that with something that sounds like music that was meant to be about "The Bringer of War".

I seem to recall hearing a story where someone told John Williams to write something that sounded like Mars, hence Imperial March.

Although, this was a while ago and could use a confirmation.

Compare this...
http://youtu.be/iISxAhvv3ts

To this...
http://youtu.be/TlpTZ5CtLBE

Was Mr. Williams really aware that he was "modeling" Stravinsky? Maybe, but it probably came from his sub-conscious mind. I'm sure he knew the piece well and had heard it, perhaps even performing or directing it at one time. Who knows, perhaps Lucas temped the score with the Rite of Spring at that point, and it was VERY intentional.

This kind of thing happens all the time with film composers. We have a deadline, and cannot spare too much "self doubt" time when it comes to accidentally taking from other people's compositions. Other times, it absolutely is intentional, and the music is changed up just enough to pass for original.

A friend of mine claims that he met John Williams once and asked him point-blank why his stuff sounded so much like Holst. He says that Williams simply walked away.

Personally, I'd rather hear a composer steal good stuff than create garbage. Perhaps that's why I enjoy arranging but have no interest in composing.

oldbandnerd wrote:well ..... A lot of other people . It seems to me that the theme for Darth Vader sounds much like Mars from The Planets by Holst.

While Williams clearly has his own music and musical style I swear I hear elements of other composers in his writings. I'm not complaining or trying to pick a fight here. I am just wondering if anyone else has noticed this. Not that this is all bad . I couldn't think of a better way to represent Vader that with something that sounds like music that was meant to be about "The Bringer of War".

On a certain level isn't there the influence of any predecessor in a composer's output. Elements of Mozart's music are apparent in Beethoven, Elements from Beethoven's music are apparent in Brahms music... (Certain harmonies, certain gestures, certain lines...etc) (Every one borrows from the past....Some more remote than others)

Williams, like many other film composers, is to me a "pastiche composer." He writes vignettes from another epoque or style. His music is well crafted and readily borrows from: Wagner, Prokofiev, Holst, Hermann, Korngold, Steiner, Stravinksy, and others... If you listen carefully, his formal divisions usually follow forms (ABA) with themes often being 4,8,12,16 measures long.

If it makes you fell any better, he doesn't "Steal" the music. (Handel was especially notorious for "plagiarizing" others music. Certain passages are literally copy and paste.) Handel might have photocopied the works, but Williams merely does free hand drawings from a model. He might not depart much from the model but there is enough so that I don't consider it "plagiarizing."

One last thing, there is a motive in Beethoven's Fifth Fourth movement that really reminds me of the theme from E.T. ...

I'm sure if we all chimed in we could link his music to many classical works...

bloke wrote:When I play John Williams' music it sounds suspiciously like me playing John Williams' music.

I think playing it also sounds suspiciously like hearing it

tuben wrote:

GC wrote:I don't hear the connection between the Imperial March and Mars, though.

Agreed. One is in 4/4, one is in 5/4.

I think that saying that a different meter is the reason why two pieces don't sound alike is quite weak as a justification.

I think that the connection between the Imperial March and Mars resides more in stylistic concerns such as:

-Both pieces, despite being at different tempos, have strong rhythmical pulses in the background.(i.e ostinatos)
-The thematic motive of both pieces starts 3 repeated quarters and also contain dotted eight sixteenths.(Darth Vader theme vis-a-vis the "Euphonium excerpt")
-Both start with an accompaniment before then proceeding to the fully fledged theme.
-Both are in minor keys.
-The use of orchestral colour is similar

My claims are not that these two pieces are one and the same; they are indeed quite different. However, I feel they share commonalities. As I mentioned above, the commonalities are more akin to one composer calling upon elements from a previous stylistic period.

FWIW, I'm sure Hollywood film directors would use preexisting classical music if it would line up perfectly. Moreover, directors often use classical music in the temp track. (which is being played while the actors rehearse) The composer is then asked to compose something that resembles in one way or another the other music.

tuben wrote:

GC wrote:I don't hear the connection between the Imperial March and Mars, though.

Agreed. One is in 4/4, one is in 5/4....

I am guessing that the relentless rhythmic accompaniment is the main similarity between the two.

As to the idea of "stealing" music --- it seems to me that a good film composer has to be a chameleon, so he/she is likely to draw from many sources. As others have already mentioned, one generation's music is informed by all of the previous generations, both positively, and negatively.

Just for the record .......
I don't think John Williams stole anything. He's John-f***ing-Williams!!! He doesn't have to. I think that was either influenced,consciously or not or perhaps he even listened to other music trying to get a particular sound and "wrote in the style of" others ..... It happens .

oldbandnerd wrote:I swear I hear elements of other composers in his writings

Duh.

But if it bothers you, remember that Bach "borrowed" heavily, too!

I remember hearing a radio announcer talking about John Williams after they had a conversation which went something like this...

RA: Mr. Williams, after hearing your compositions, I can hear about 7 composers in there.
JW: Clearly, you don't know much about music. There are at least 20.




On the other hand, which composers had absolutely no influence from great composers of their past/contemporary?

oldbandnerd wrote:Just for the record .......
I don't think John Williams stole anything. He's John-f***ing-Williams!!! He doesn't have to. I think that was either influenced,consciously or not or perhaps he even listened to other music trying to get a particular sound and "wrote in the style of" others ..... It happens .

One of my music theory/history professors said that John Williams raided every famous composer's trash can . . . not in a belittling or mocking way, but simply as a statement of fact. We are all products of those who went before us. It is the same with everything.

I wear shoes. I know for a fact that Bloke often wears shoes.

I think bloke is acting suspiciously like me.

tuneitup wrote:I remember hearing a radio announcer talking about John Williams after they had a conversation which went something like this...

RA: Mr. Williams, after hearing your compositions, I can hear about 7 composers in there.
JW: Clearly, you don't know much about music. There are at least 20.




On the other hand, which composers had absolutely no influence from great composers of their past/contemporary?

That's great.

Sometimes the connections jump out at you. There are a blue million things in movie scoring that sound like other pieces we've heard. Sometimes things just jump out at you, like the "Death and Transfiguration" thing I mentioned earlier (about a fourth of the band that was playing it made comments about "Superman" afterward; it was really obvious from both the melody and the way it was harmonized).

That doesn't mean that Williams, Horner, and the rest don't do this subconsciously. It doesn't mean that they don't do it consciously, either. After all, there are only so many possible combinations of notes, chords, harmonies, and rhythms available, and there are inevitably going to be identical passages, near misses, and similarities. Only they know what inspires them unless they specifically discuss it. I do get really tired of listening to how Williams "steals" from other composers. Composers have borrowed, begged, and stolen from each other for centuries. It's a time-honored practice of the best and the worst.

What does irritate me is the way so many people point to piddly junk that has to be stretched totally out of shape and out of context to back up claims of similarities that do not exist.

GC wrote: After all, there are only so many possible combinations of notes, chords, harmonies, and rhythms available, and there are inevitably going to be identical passages, near misses, and similarities.

I Really don't buy that. There are more than enough possibilities. If one really set out in a purely theoretical way, there would be no possible way to exhaust all musical material that one can create... Honestly, There are thousands of scales, hundreds of individual rhythmic cells, thousands of possible instrumental colors....

Similarity is not the result of having exhausted all musical material, it is the result of "Consciously" adhering to a style.

GC wrote: Only they know what inspires them unless they specifically discuss it.

Again, I disagree. If I hear two passages and hear a strong resemblance, even if the composer doesn't acknowledge it I still feel free to associate. This point weakens your next point because many composers have refrained from specifically discussing composition method. Composers learn through imitation, they don't have to discuss it for us to understand that....

GC wrote: I do get really tired of listening to how Williams "steals" from other composers. Composers have borrowed, begged, and stolen from each other for centuries. It's a time-honored practice of the best and the worst.

I concur that "Stolen" or "steals" are thrown around too easily... I think, however, that it is more than safe to say that the influence of many composers can be traced in the music of Williams... The influence of Stravinsky, Holst, Prokofiev, etc.... is more readily audible in Williams than it is, let's say, in Schoenberg. (Many others fit that category)

I don't mean any disrespect by my comments, but the first point you raise really irks me. I personally find it is thrown out too often as a justification for the reason for why lots of pop music sounds alike. (I won't go there) And as I pointed out, your second point seems contradictory.

hrender wrote:I posit that the number of composers whose work sounds nothing like any other composer's work is very, very small.

Agreed. However, John Cage comes to mind...

I think the reasons John Williams gets such flak are:

1. His music is Extremely famous. (If you count the number of plays his music has received(including cinema performances) he surely ranks at the top of the most heard composers)

2. More people are buying recordings than ever (And can listen to music online). (Handel could copy and paste from other composers because most people wouldn't have heard a piece performed in Italy if they lived in London)
frame spanning at least one century.

3. As a compliment to pt. 1. Fewer people have heard of Steiner, Korngold and Hermann. They were the original "Borrowers."

FWIW, Williams score to Catch Me if You Can is great because it shows of his talent as a Jazz/ambiance composer. He is more flexible that most give him credit for.