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I think Alex tubas get a bad reputation based on an older generation of instruments. The newer ones have similar intonation concerns that a PT-6 has, not really any worse.

I might ask "Is it worth the hassle of not sounding like an Alex to have slightly fewer intonation concerns?"



Jon

NO- glad i sold 163 Alex ... love PT 20 for small orchestra

Yes. The "bad" Alexanders still sound great, they just take more work to sound like that.

Here's the thing I'd keep in mind -- Alexanders are handmade, high-end, professional instruments. I do NOT think it's normal to *learn* how to play on professional equipment, as cool as it may seem. A person needs to have control and command over their skill to the point where they can use high-end equipment to enhance and make the best of their skill. If that means lipping, alternate fingerings, pulling slides, then so be it.

But if I were a student, then that "bad intonation" would add FAR too many other variables to the equation, and would be distracting to the physical and mental aspects of "learning how to play the tuba."

The human brain can only think about so many things at the same time, so it's a matter of what you are spending time thinking about and what comes to you without thinking.

While I currently have no Alex in the herd anymore, there will be one in the next few years. We all try to find the horn that 'calls us'. To those of us who find that the Alex is that horn, we will always agree that the trickiness of some horns are worth the product it produces. I have played alex's that have GORGEOUS sounds and horrible fingering issues. I have also encountered a couple that were spot on intonation but didn't seem as open. The best one i have ever played was owned by Ivan Hammond (he had 2, one dog and one was GREAT).

I only studied with Ivan for about three months, but he had the best statement for equipment. Simple and true..

"The horn you need is the horn you NEED" If you get the sound you NEED on an Alex, get an Alex. If it is on an HB2P, get that. In the world of music, you need (as a tubist) to have the horn that produces the sound required for the gig. Even Jake couldn't make a 3/4 Rudy sound like the York (although I would give my left kidney to have his sound on a garbage can)

So, my .02 is that if the quirky Alex is the horn that puts you in the drivers seat, do it. Then it is worth every slide yank and mouthpiece hunt.

PS. the elephant responeded while I was typing, and I have come to love his opinions on these issues. add what he said!!!!

I love my new (1970's) MW20. In the orchestra I play with, it fits with the bones great. My old 163 was THE horn though. I wish I knew who stole it... rrrrrrrrr

Wade and Paul are right on. I was heavily cautioned about Alexander tuba's in college. The school I attended owned 2: the F I couldn't stand, and the C was a challenge, but one I appreciated after a while. In hind sight I was not ready: playing a 186 had not prepared me for the subtleties required to master these types of horns. Of course that schools C was stolen, and I don't know about the F. I'd like to play both of them again to see how much my perception has changed. I know this: Alexander tubas work for me now, and I've had opportunities to play quite a few horns.

the elephant wrote:In all honesty, if you have to ask this question then I would say no. You are not the type of player who will be happy with one of these horns. If you were asking about one you heard and then got to trial, "What do I have to do to play this great old tuba in tune?" then I would say yes.

Truth

Used to own one but had to let it go. I was not ready for playing an Alex and I never spent enough time on it to be in control. Maybe you could say that the tuba was better then me?

Found a horn with a similar sound (an old B&S symphonie BBb) that is much easier to just pick up and play. But that Alex BBb I owned sure sounded good. My father still asks me why I sold it. He still remembers the sound and prefers it of all the horns I have owned (Not knowing anything about tubas or the special Alex sound).

I have a 156 that I love (pictures of it on my blog). All of the 163's I've played recently have been excellent instruments. I had a custom built 163 6-valve that was awesome. A former student of mine has it now, Grrrrrr! I shouldn't have sold it. I played a 173 for many years, but sold it off when my bass trombonist switched instruments and the 173 didn't blend with his new instrument. That's when I moved to Hirsbrunners. I played an OLD 164 BBb when we played Mahler 3. Even though in my studio it has some pitch 'inconsistencies,' it was PERFECT for that tune, and the pitch was totally workable. The new 163's pictured on http://www.hornguys.com" target="_blank indicate a rewrapped 5th valve; I'd definitely try one of those out. If you want a rotary, German style tuba, they are definitely worth it.

bloke wrote:Alex's are on the western side of the Great Divide, and all of the new M-W's are on the eastern side of the Great Divide.

???? - I am feeling very thick today. I don't know what you mean by "Great Divide" and I have no reference to what east or west of said divide would be. Elaboration?

Ben wrote:

bloke wrote:Alex's are on the western side of the Great Divide, and all of the new M-W's are on the eastern side of the Great Divide.

???? - I am feeling very thick today. I don't know what you mean by "Great Divide" and I have no reference to what east or west of said divide would be. Elaboration?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Divide

the elephant wrote:In all honesty, if you have to ask this question then I would say no. You are not the type of player who will be happy with one of these horns. If you were asking about one you heard and then got to trial, "What do I have to do to play this great old tuba in tune?" then I would say yes.

A big +1 on that from me.

As always, some very good opinions. I actually got back from Mainz, Germany two weeks ago today. I was in Mainz for about a week working with the Alexander Company repairing, restoring and modifying my c.1964 nickel silver Alex C that's been my main horn for 20 years now. I submitted an article for the ITEA Journal today that should come out in the Winter edition entitled "Sound Legacy". It's all about my trip to Alexander land. I've always wanted to go and had an amazing opportunity to get to Germany on a sweet deal, thanks to one of my clients. When people talk about Alexander tubas, two things come out of their mouths, great sound, not so great intonation. In addition to my nickel horn, I also own a 1980 5 valve Alex C. To tell you the truth, I have less issues with pitch on both my Alex's than I do my PT-15; and if you've heard my solo CD, (which I play everything on the F) you might understand the impact of that statement. Intonation begins and ends with your ears. You will only play as well as you can hear. If you're expecting your instrument to do the work for you, good luck.

While I was at Alexander, I got to play 3 new tubas, two in F and one in C. One of the F tubas was built as a double tuba, in F and C, much like a double horn. I liked it so much I offered to buy it, but we coudn't agree on price. The C tuba was new and I played it everyday for 5 days, liking it more and more. What I've noticed is that with older Alex's, older horns period, have a tendency to leak somewhere; the valves or the tuning slide coming out of the valves. On older Alex's, you might have a very large receiver and getting a mouthpiece to fit properly can also contribute to whacky pitch. Playing on a mouthpiece that matches the horn is also important. I play a Laskey 30G on both my Alex's and it's the best match I know of. So there are some basics of equipment that need to be addressed. Not to mention the biggest item, AIR! Learning the air for an Alex is job one. This may take some time to learn, but a lot of intonation issues come from the air stream alone as well as your own ear training.

There is a lot of Alexander "lore" to be sure floating around in the world. We tend to think the really old Alexander tubas are the best Alexander tubas. They are indeed hand made. Alexander has a new facility to manufacture instruments. They just moved into the new facility this past Spring and I bet I was the first American to visit the new facility. They have about 30 workers making instruments. 80% of what they make are French Horns, 10% Wagner Tubas and the remaining 10% tubas and trumpets. They make about 80 horns per month, (4 per day) selling them all over the world. I saw three tubas on a bench being made while I was there. The work is amazing. The craftsmen are amazing. With any handmade instrument, you really don't know how it's going to turn out until it's all finished. However, all three of the tubas I played while I was there were really good and totally Alexander in sound.

My brass Alexander was represented to me as being from around 1967 when I bought it. It's 1980, and the only reason I know this is that Phillip Alexander showed me the ledger with my tuba serial number in the ledger, #2668. You'll find the serial number on the top plate of the second valve. It's quite small to read. Alexander started putting serial numbers on their instruments in 1975. These numbers aren't too reliable however. Alexander buys their valve sets from another manufacturer and they put the numbers on. Alexander doesn't make a lot of tubas these days due to the demand they have with their french horns, so valve sets might sit around for a while. The new C tuba I played there was number 24,006. Alexander also changed the way they made their bells around 1975 too. Before 1975, bells were made with a gusset, a triangular insert. This is just another way to tell whether or not your tuba is before or after 1975. It's hard to really know how old your Alex is unless you have first hand knowledge. I know my nickel horn is c.1964 because of my first tuba teacher. He had a student buy my horn in 1964 and it cost $495, with five valves, with a case and mouthpiece. I still have the original case and mouthpiece!

We're so fortunate as tuba players these days as we have so much choice, so many quality instruments to choose from. Some have really fine intonation. For me it's always been about sound and I've loved the Alex sound for as long as I've played the tuba. My first teacher had an Alex. I'm very fortunate that the orchestra I've been playing in for 20 years along with the hall I play in match my Alex pretty well. I suppose the grass is always greener and some people change horns like they change their socks. Whatever you end up playing on, make it sound beautiful and play it in tune.
Ted

I have played an Alexander 163 since 1975. I can honestly say that that tuba has never held me back musically or lost an audition (I take full responsibility for losing auditions). I have never found a tuba that I like better than an Alexander 163, for me it was worth the effort.

best,
Mark

the elephant wrote:In all honesty, if you have to ask this question then I would say no. You are not the type of player who will be happy with one of these horns. If you were asking about one you heard and then got to trial, "What do I have to do to play this great old tuba in tune?" then I would say yes.

An Alex player who stays with it for many years (versus a tourist who only sticks around for a year or two and becomes frustrated) is a person whose overriding goal os tone. There are many *almost Alex* horns out there that *sort of* have that sound, that have far better pitch and that usually cost a good bit less.

Never purchase a 163 without a trial period or at least a good, multi-hour block of time with it and a tuner. And ALWAYS have the owner present to show you how they have chosen to deal with things. If you are comfortable with alternates, slide pulls and lipping all the time in order to get the specific sound you want then go for it! If this is too much of a bother then pass.

When I purchased mine I drove it from Jackson to OKC just to have an experienced Alex player tell me if it was a good example. They blow differently from other tubas. And with that and the funky pitch I wanted to know what I really had in my lap -- it sure sounded good, but it was not something I was prepared to take to work without first doing a lot of shedding. Once I learned it's quirks, it was the best tuba I ever played. Everything worked very well: low end, above the staff, slurs and technique, and it had the sound I remember Mike Sanders having in the San Antonio Symphony. But it took me two years of intense work and some mods to really feel relaxed on the thing. Lots of work, to be sure. But for that type of person it is what is needed. Your mileage WILL vary...

off-topic i know, but who in OKC did ya hit up?

Wade, a.k.a. The Elephant drove up from Texas to Oklahoma City. He brought two very nice Alex's. for me to play. If you go over to the For Sale part of this forum where you'll see his old 1958 Alex for sale, I tell an interesting story about that time in 1995.

I really like what Ted Cox has had to say here; well worth keeping in mind for somebody considering an Alex

The only 2 Alexanders I ever owned were Fs. A five valve which I traded to Jake in exchange for the converted 7 valve which I believe Mr Buttery now has. He wanted the 5v as Pictures was coming up and Bydlo was to be on his plate. It had a bit better high end than the 7v.
The 7 worked very nicely as a F / CC double Using the RH 4th gave a 3 valve LH CC. The bottom range was obviously NOT going to match my King 4RV BBb monster but would have been very similar to, say, a Mirafone 184 for what it could produce. It made a great chamber instrument which did a fine job in the orchestra as well. I refer you to the old RCA recording of Stravinsky "Fairy's Kiss" with Jake playing the 7v Alex.

I played on a number of Alex CC's over the years. Ken Hughes was at Northwestern in 65-66 and had, as I recall, a 163 which was quite good. Maybe it took a bit more getting used to than the average mira 186 but, it did have a beautiful sound, was more efficient, as fully measured in Jake's capable hands and when Ken, Stu Turner with his mira 186 and I did comparisons MY OPINION was that while the mira might have been slightly easier to play, the Alex won all-round. I will say though, that the mirafone felt "stuffy" by comparison - it forced you to play as IT wanted to be played. The alex took more finessing but more could be done with it.

When I first heard Chester in Boston I still preferred the sound Jake got from the old york but, with more exposure to the BSO I came to really like the sounds he made with the Alexander. It probably fit the Boston sound better than the York would have. This was back in 70-71 - things would obviously have changed since then.

If somebody were to offer me a good alex at a price I could afford I would be more than happy to adapt to it. They are very "personal" horns. For those who are willing and able to "become one" with the instrument the rewards will come. It's a bit like giving an old Kodak brownie to somebody to take a picture - point and shoot and you'll get a result. Give an artist a Hasselblad and they will shoot the same subject and make a work of art. Alexanders are a bit like that.

Ken Herrick wrote:The alex took more finessing but more could be done with it.

Mike Sanders told me once in a lesson something to the effect that his Alex would do anything but it put all the burden on the player to make it happen. He still owned his Alex at that time (having just bought the Yorkbrunner) and he demonstrated his point during the lesson. I still have that sound in my ears all these years later.

After playing it for many years, however, that effort became more of a burden for him. He had an opportunity to buy it back a few years ago, but after a brief trial he went back to his Yorkbrunner. His explanation (and he said it on Tubenet so I don't think I'm violating any confidences here): He was afraid the conductor would really like it.

I also note that despite Wade's loving words above, he does not now play an Alex, unless he went back to it recently during my period of semi-dormancy.

Rick "just providing some balance to reinforce the hours-per-day practice requirement mentioned above" Denney

Yes they are, in tune or out of tune, the sound in hard to beat. I have owned probablay 10 of them and the best one I have ever owned now belongs to Mark Barton (SP). The Alex 163 I sold to him actually plays in tune where no alternate fingering were needed. At the time I owned this horn I also owned a 1966 Miraphone 186. I like the Alex better in all situations because it played better in tune. This horn was certainly the exception but there are a few out there that play as in tune as any great horn being produced today.

Even the Alexanders that need a lot of work to play in tune are worth it. Im my opinion, if your looking to do the orchestral scene, then this is the horn to get unless you can afford a Thor. If your looking to do solo work, then there are better options but for the orchestra, this is well worth it.

If you do not want to battle the intonatio issues then I would suggest playing one of the BBb 163's, these are great and easy to play in tune.

JMO

I used to own Tuben's Alex. Although I miss it, I just didn't practice enough to be as proficient on it as I can be on my others. It was a very jealous partner and I need to be able to "plug and play." Someday I hope to acquire another, but I'm thinking it will be a BBb instead. They seem to be a little easier to manage than the CCs - or so I've heard.

What a great thread! Really enjoyed reading everyone's input, and most of all, hearing about my most influential mentor's recent trip to the factory. Glad to hear you had such a great trip, Ted!

My old Alex was my first CC...obviously influenced by studying with Ted and hearing his gorgeous sound a bare minimum of once a week for 4 years. First concert i heard him play with the OKC Phil was Alexander Nevsky...HOLY S*#T!!! I wanted that sound!! I bought Lee Hipp's Alex...a 1969-72 vintage...amazing Alex! I drove straight to Ted's house when I brought the Alex home from San Antonio...the first words I recall out of him, "This is a great Alex! ...not as good as mine, but a great horn! (haaaaa) Now you begin your 'adventure in sound!!' "

Ted then passed-me-on to the ultimate Alexander legend, Chester Schmitz. Chester had been playing a Yorkbrunner for the past few years when i got to NEC, but after he played my Alex(es) in a few lessons, he started pulling out his gorgeous old Alex again in lessons, then in the BSO. He actually played his final BSO concert in 2001 on his Alex...I just about cried...gorgeous Brahms 2

Simply, an Alex is not for the "faint-of-heart." It truly is an adventure, and you must be a work-horse to truly make it work. If you do, the rewards are priceless. As others have already stated, "if you have to ask, don't bother."