Mystery European Rotary Tuba

[toobagrowl]

Man that tuba IS a mystery. Even ole Bloke or Klaus haven't commented on it yet!
I will say this: the main tuning slide wrap and the brace that connects it to the bottom bow look Meinl-Weston 20/25 ish.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... 500wt_1156" target="_blank" target="_blank

The small makeshift second valve paddle is just like the old-style B&S PT-1 tubas.

But the 3rd valve slide is tucked to the back like on the Miraphones and Amatis/Cervenys.
http://www.oberloh.com/sales/AmatiBBb-Tuba.JPG" target="_blank" target="_blank

Looks like the thumb ring has been replaced or repaired too.

Never seen hexagonal braces before.

Is the metal thin and light?

I, too, hope iiipopes will catch this thread and see how it compares to his detachable-bell Miraphone 186 BBb. (hint hint).

[imperialbari]

Yes, the hexagonal stays annoy me. I am sure I have had such instrument in my hands, but I cannot place that memory. I looked through a good deal of my own instruments and found no hexagonal stays.

To me this instrument smells Czech, but the paddles don’t scream Cerveny (especially not the one from B&S, of course). And none of my Czech instruments have hexagonal stays.

Maybe I should rather have looked through my American instruments, as the only instrument represented in my galleries, which is indexed as having hexagonal stays, is an American beginner’s
trombone branded Rent a Horn. But then these stays are seated differently and have no embellishment ridges.

Tuning slide.jpg

Maybe the explanation is about a pre-WWII import tax circumvention scheme by some US distributors/makers. Assembled instruments were taxed much higher than parts, so at least Conn bought the tubing and the valves for some French horn models in Germany and then did the assembly themselves.

Klaus

[tclements]

Looks like an old Mirafone. Dunno about the bell....

[Rick Denney]

It is not a B & S or miraphone, look at the way the lead pipe enters the first valve, very strange set-up. The rest looks like typical german design.

It does not look unusual to me. What am I missing? Most of the newer rotary tubas have had the leadpipe enter the first valve from straight above, while in older designs they enter at a 45-degree angle. There are huge exceptions, of course, but it seems to me the boundary between "newer" and "older" in this case is in the 1960's or so, and later with the Czech makers.

Rick "also stumped by the hexagonal braces with round pads" Denney

[toobagrowl]

Ya know, the more I look at your tuba the more I think it is an old Meinl-Weston.
The ferrules, round flanges, and bottom bow guard are just like on my M-W 2155R. And the rotory valves (sans the old-style B&S-esqe 2nd valve paddle) are
just like the old W. Meinl-Weston tubas. Like I said before, the main tuning slide wrap and the 'bedpost' brace that connects it to the bottom bow
look vintage M-W to me. It is the hexagonal braces and other work done on the horn that make it a mystery. Someone really tampered with that horn.
Further evidence of this is the lack of nickel-silver ferrules on the second valve female slides towards the rotor casings; whereas the others have them.

The reason I asked about how light & thin the metal was is because Cervenys have very soft, thin, light metal.
They are amongst the lightest horns. You'd know for sure just by picking one up. But you state that the metal is thinner and lighter than your Jumbo souzys, which have very heavy and thick metal. Just about anything will have thinner, lighter metal than the old Jumbo souzys. Your mystery horn just LOOKS more robust/better-made than a Cerveny. Another check for the M-W column.
Does your horn say "Germany" or "Made in Germany" anywhere on it? Any markings on the mpc receiver?


too "still a mystery, but leaning more towards M-W" ba

[imperialbari]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... 2/pic/list

If new to my Yahoo-based brass gallery you may join via this address:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... %20format/

Klaus

[imperialbari]

The engraving indicating Meinl-Weston as a division of Getzen, which I don’t think they ever were, would place it not much later than 1975.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Found one more in my galleries:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/YorkMaste ... 2/pic/list

The 3 of your paddles look like they could be Meinl-Weston, but your instrument very well could be a conglomerate of available at a workshop more going for playability than for looks.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Which is a bit odd maybe, as the official name to my knowledge is The Netherlands. Holland being the name for two of their provinces.

Until the upcoming of Adams the most known brass makers from The Netherlands were Kessels and Schenkelaars. The piston brasses from Schenkelaars were quite common in Denmark, when I started on brass in 1960, as currency exchange rates for US$ and British Pounds were not favorable back then. They soon lost to the British Class B instruments, which in turn lost to Yamaha’s 2XX and 3XX series.

My gallery has several entries of Schenkelaars’ instruments. The lone rotary BBb has paddles quite similar to those of your tuba. But I found no hexagonal stays. Yet I have a suspicion it is exactly on this brand I saw hexagonal stays. Could have been used for a period.

Seing the photos of the said BBb again makes me remember information told by the current MW owner, when they issued the HoJo small bore BBb models a few years back. HoJo’s original BBb tuba was a Mahillon. Making a replica wasn’t that tough for MW. They had supplied the bells for the original Mahillon version anyway.

And here may be the explanation, why your instrument looks like a conglomerate. Schenkelaars were most known for their piston instruments. They may have made their rotary instruments from parts bought from makers issuing much higher volumes of such instruments. The paddles of your tuba may look like MW, because they were bought from MW. And the rotor cranks looking like Cerveny may be because they were made by Cerveny.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Bell engraving.jpg

[toobagrowl]

I agree.
What Klaus said makes sense: a Schenkelaars tuba made with some Meinl-Weston parts.
I just wonder if the hexagonal braces were made there in the Schenkelaars shop -- they are certainly unique!