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I'm playing Mendelssohns Ouverture fur Harmoniemusik which is for wind and brass. You can see the score here. I'm playing it on an Eb. In the score the part is on the same line as the contrafaggot which of course sounds an octave lower. The individual part (it's not a joint part with the contra) is written at the same pitch it appears in the score. It has a generaly high tessitura never below the bass bone usually doubling the bassoons sometimes the upper bassoons sometimes the contra. Has anyone had any experience of this piece and should the part sound the octave lower as the score would suggest? I think not but the score is confusing.

Play it an octave lower, as the contra bassoon would.

Sorry to disagree with Tony, but I'd say don't play it down the octave. These instruments had a euphonium-like range, so down an octave wouldn't be appropriate.

UncleBeer wrote:Sorry to disagree with Tony, but I'd say don't play it down the octave. These instruments had a euphonium-like range, so down an octave wouldn't be appropriate.

I have to disagree with you, although these instruments use Euphonium-like Mouthpieces and are the same length (Approx 8 feet), the Serpent and bass horns could easily play below the staff. Also, since Mendelssohn wrote it on the same staff as the Contra-bassoon, it is to be performed the same way as the Contra-bassoon. The most likely reason for this is that the Contra-Bassoon was not responsive and in-tune in the low range.

PMeuph wrote: since Mendelssohn wrote it on the same staff as the Contra-bassoon, it is to be performed the same way as the Contra-bassoon.

Cello and bass parts are often written on the same staff, yet are certainly not expected to play the same octave. Right?

UncleBeer wrote: Cello and bass parts are often written on the same staff, yet are certainly not expected to play the same octave. Right?

Right.
However, in this specific example there is a Bassoon AND a seperate Contra-bassoon and bass horn part. Again, this has to do with the inaccurate playing of the contra-bassoon in the early to mid 19th century.

I agree with Bloke on this. My gut tells me the bass horn does not sound well the 8vb written. Additionally on Mendelsohn recordings the singing of this instrument is very nice reinforcement of the contrabassoon. I am sure no one will care as much as us tubists...

I'd play it an octave lower. It would sound better, with or without a contrabasson it would be appropriate and the conductor probably can't tell the difference anyway.

If there is a contrabassoon and you are to play it up the octave I would be cautious with certain parts. The following portions might interfere with the overall texture or harmony if played in the wrong octave. If these measure are played at the written and not sounding octave, it will interfere with the overall texture. More specifically, they will clash with certain pitches in the first bassoon or bass trombone parts.

These are my suggestions, take them or leave them, but they are surely worth a try in rehearsal.

Page 6: the g in the 3rd measure and following 3 should be played one octave down, not to interfere with the first bassoon.
Page 7: 5th measure, down the octave.
Page 9: 4th measure, down the octave or cut it out.
Page 13: 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th(next page) measures, down the octave.
Page 15: 3rd measure, down the octave.
Page 23: 2nd measure, down the octave.

tclements wrote:I'd play it an octave lower. .... and the conductor probably can't tell the difference anyway.

A big ditto on that!

This, from Cherry Beauregard's DMA dissertation (p. 17-18):

Felix Mendelssohn wrote for the bass horn in two works for band. These are: Overture for Wind Instruments Op. 24, and Funeral March for Wind Instruments Op. 103, written for the burial of Norbert Burgmuller.

In these works, the bass horn is scored with the contrabassoon, the instruments sounding in octaves.

UncleBeer wrote:This, from Cherry Beauregard's DMA dissertation (p. 17-18):

Felix Mendelssohn wrote for the bass horn in two works for band. These are: Overture for Wind Instruments Op. 24, and Funeral March for Wind Instruments Op. 103, written for the burial of Norbert Burgmuller.

In these works, the bass horn is scored with the contrabassoon, the instruments sounding in octaves.

Yes, but what is his substantiation? I have no idea how he reached that conclusion...How is his argument more solid than yours or anybody else in this discussion? Also, he states that Mendelssohn didn't trust the bass horn, but does not refer to the precarious nature of the contrabassoon in the the early 19th century. (The New Grove article on Bassoon refers to the unevenness of the horn up until 1870 or so.)

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I stumbled upon this quote:

New Grove's Harmoniemusik Article wrote: The trombone, serpent, double bass and double bassoon were variously employed to give a 16′ quality: the instrument used depended upon availability, and such parts were often optional

PMeuph wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:This, from Cherry Beauregard's DMA dissertation (p. 17-18):

Felix Mendelssohn wrote for the bass horn in two works for band. These are: Overture for Wind Instruments Op. 24, and Funeral March for Wind Instruments Op. 103, written for the burial of Norbert Burgmuller.

In these works, the bass horn is scored with the contrabassoon, the instruments sounding in octaves.

Yes, but what is his substantiation?

Bearuregard cites it himself: Mendelssohn's score. Two instruments written on one staff, one a transposing instrument, the other not. The rest is simple logic.

PMeuph wrote:I stumbled upon this quote:

New Grove's Harmoniemusik Article wrote: The trombone, serpent, double bass and double bassoon were variously employed to give a 16′ quality: the instrument used depended upon availability, and such parts were often optional

First, what does this have to do with corno di basso? And second, aside from the contrabass variety, what kind of trombone could conceivably provide a "16' quality", considering that trombones (and serpents as well) are 8' instruments?

UncleBeer wrote: Two instruments written on one staff, one a transposing instrument, the other not. The rest is simple logic.

But why did Mendelssohn not write the non-transposing part on the 2nd bassoon part above? (which is almost the same part)

This is where "simple logic" is not so logical or simple anymore....

UncleBeer wrote:

PMeuph wrote:I stumbled upon this quote:

New Grove's Harmoniemusik Article wrote: The trombone, serpent, double bass and double bassoon were variously employed to give a 16′ quality: the instrument used depended upon availability, and such parts were often optional

First, what does this have to do with corno di basso? And second, aside from the contrabass variety, what kind of trombone could conceivably provide a "16' quality", considering that trombones (and serpents as well) are 8' instruments?

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1. Not specifically with corno di basso. Just with the practice of contrabassoon at that time in "Hamoniemusik" ensembles and not wind bands.

2. Eb;F;G; bass trombones, still used in the late eighteenth early 19th centuries.

Honestly, I still think that the reason this part is there is because of the precarious nature of the contrabassoon. If played with en ensemble that has a modern contrabassoon, it's probably best to 1. not play the "corno di basso" part at all. or 2. play it up the octave but using the 8vb suggestions I have posted previously.

I do not buy that there is an octave divisi on this staff (akin to cello-double bass staves of the classical-early romantic era). I think that the reason there is a corno di basso is, like the serpent in Mendelssohn's fifth, because on the double-bassoon.

PMeuph wrote:2. Eb;F;G; bass trombones, still used in the late eighteenth early 19th centuries.

Which still aren't "16' qualities".

PMeuph wrote:I think that the reason there is a corno di basso is, like the serpent in Mendelssohn's fifth, because on the double-bassoon.

I performed this just this past season. It works wonderfully just as Mendelssohn wrote it: in octaves with the contrabassoon.

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I sat next to the contra in the gig and palyed most of it down the octave with the contra. Worked fine. I dont't think anyone but me gave a toss.