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Good day everyone!
My searches have brought up very little, so it's time to ask the group. Who here has a tenor tuba (ie, Alexander 151, Miraphone 56A ect) or has spent time playing one? Really I'm interested in how these things play compared to a British style Euphonium (3+1 Comp). How does pitch compare between them? Do they play well down low or do they have problems? What do you guys use for a mouthpiece? (normal euphonium size or bass trombone size) Has anyone here used one in a concert band setting? Brass quintet? Tuba quartet/ensemble? From what I understand, these don't really play much like the oval baritones out there so let's leave those out. If you don't want to write openly on the board feel free to PM me.

Thanks a lot everyone

I've spent a little time with a Couesnon tenor tuba and it played almost the same as their later Bb euphs, and not unlike most other French euphs. My J. Gras 5v is very similar in tone and playing characteristics. In my limited experience I can say the sound is considerably warmer than the British euphs, and the low range is very manageable. The low end on my 5v is so good I use it in small groups to play both euph and tuba parts!

bloke wrote:Does "tenor tuba" now mean "rotary"?

That seems to be the new definition. Funny how things get redefined when we're not looking ...

Well, as the man said, let's talk. How would you two define it?

Size? But tubas in general don't have a size requirement, and size specifications aren't easy to agree over - could you make a table of bore size vs. 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4? Might be hard to rigorously define "size", is what I'm thinking.

If it has 5 valves, that looks like a clue to me. How about "having 5 or more valves, or closely resembling one with 5 or more valves?"

bloke wrote:

Donn wrote:Well, as the man said, let's talk. How would you two define it?

Size? But tubas in general don't have a size requirement, and size specifications aren't easy to agree over - could you make a table of bore size vs. 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4? Might be hard to rigorously define "size", is what I'm thinking.

If it has 5 valves, that looks like a clue to me. How about "having 5 or more valves, or closely resembling one with 5 or more valves?"

How about 'a brass instrument that plays in the tenor range and has a fat bugle'...??

Exactly! Mostly conical bore (same as any other tuba-family instrument), tenor range (8 or 9 foot open length, compared with 12 or 13.5 foot for basses and 16 or 18 foot for contrabasses). All that bore-size, fractional-size, number-of-valves "stuff" has no more bearing on whether it's a tuba or not than it does with contrabass or bass tubas (or, for that matter, with soprano tubas ).

Is a contrabass tuba *not* a tuba if it has less than 5 valves? Not bloody hardly.
Is it *not* a tuba if it has piston valves? Nope.

Somebody's trying to draw a line between euphoniums and tenor tubas ... the problem with that is that euphoniums *are* tenor tubas. Now, if you're specifically wondering about *rotary valve* tenor tubas, as compared with *piston valve* tenor tubas, that's a much clearer question.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing that!

I find intonation comparisons to be fairly useless as the equations all change significantly with different mouthpieces and, to a lesser extent, different players. If something is WAY out that might be universal...

I tried the alex 151 when I visited their old workshop in Mainz a few years back. I didn't find it significantly different than the oval 150, just a bigger bell and a different shape. They played very similar. Didn't do enough playing to say whether or not the intonation was good or bad...

But, why? If you're playing in a wind band you're probably playing along with people who are on British-style euphoniums. If you are playing strauss or mahler the composer probably intended you to be using an oval baryton or tenorhorn. Pictures was meant for a french tuba, so I don't see how substituting a rotary valve "tenor tuba" is any better or worse than substituting a compensating euphonium. Holst wrote "tenor tuba" on the part but certainly intended it to be played on a british-style euphonium.

Tuba 4tets? Maybe if you had two of them and the two tubists were also on rotary-valve german-style instruments. But, honestly, is it really going to sound all that different from a euphonium?

Kevin Hendrick wrote: Somebody's trying to draw a line between euphoniums and tenor tubas ... the problem with that is that euphoniums *are* tenor tubas. Now, if you're specifically wondering about *rotary valve* tenor tubas, as compared with *piston valve* tenor tubas, that's a much clearer question.

I think Roger Bobo would disagree with you...

Roger Bobo wrote: Sometimes the euphonium stands apart from the way I like to think about brass instruments! And further, to be complete in my true confessions, I have to say I also feel the same way about the British Eb tuba, which is really a bass euphonium.

I suppose after a statement like that I should give some reasons. I frequently find both the Euphonium and the British Eb tuba to be monochromatic, lacking in dynamic elasticity, and always pretty; it’s pretty in pp and it’s pretty in ff. This is not the way God created sound! The human voice, string instruments and most other brass instruments become richer in their ratio of harmonics as they get louder. Not euphonium and the British Eb tuba; they just stay pretty! I can remember my frustrations in my symphony days when we were playing works with tenor tuba and a euphonium was playing the tenor tuba parts; as the brass section would get louder and the general timbre would get more exciting the euphonium just stayed pretty. It’s this same reason that in euphonium/tuba ensembles, the euphoniums quite usually can’t keep up with the tubas in dynamic energy.

Read the rest:
http://www.rogerbobo.com/musical_articl ... ions.shtml" target="_blank

PMeuph wrote: I think Roger Bobo would disagree with you...

Roger Bobo wrote: Sometimes the euphonium stands apart from the way I like to think about brass instruments! And further, to be complete in my true confessions, I have to say I also feel the same way about the British Eb tuba, which is really a bass euphonium.

I suppose after a statement like that I should give some reasons. I frequently find both the Euphonium and the British Eb tuba to be monochromatic, lacking in dynamic elasticity, and always pretty; it’s pretty in pp and it’s pretty in ff. This is not the way God created sound! The human voice, string instruments and most other brass instruments become richer in their ratio of harmonics as they get louder. Not euphonium and the British Eb tuba; they just stay pretty! I can remember my frustrations in my symphony days when we were playing works with tenor tuba and a euphonium was playing the tenor tuba parts; as the brass section would get louder and the general timbre would get more exciting the euphonium just stayed pretty. It’s this same reason that in euphonium/tuba ensembles, the euphoniums quite usually can’t keep up with the tubas in dynamic energy.

Read the rest:
http://www.rogerbobo.com/musical_articl ... ions.shtml" target="_blank" target="_blank

This really is the reason I am looking to get a horn like the Alexander over a british style horn. I'm going active duty Army on Euphonium in the next month or two and switching from tuba to euphonium I have encountered this problem. Hence why I want to see if these "Tenor tubas" play well or if they play way different then the normal euphonium. Yes i realize that I'll get some funny looks but I would rather let my playing do the talking and the euphonium isn't my voice. Keep up the talking guys it's great to hear from you all.

bububassboner wrote: This really is the reason I am looking to get a horn like the Alexander over a british style horn. I'm going active duty Army on Euphonium in the next month or two and switching from tuba to euphonium I have encountered this problem. Hence why I want to see if these "Tenor tubas" play well or if they play way different then the normal euphonium. Yes i realize that I'll get some funny looks but I would rather let my playing do the talking and the euphonium isn't my voice. Keep up the talking guys it's great to hear from you all.

Why not go for one of the less british sounding horns out there, something like a miraphone 5050 that can really get a dark sound?(which I find really hard to get on a sovereign)

To me, the euphonium is a really great parade horn... If I had my choice tomorrow of any horn to take on parade it would be one of those 3 valve compensators from the 70's (Besson or boosey). They are light, easy to hold, good intonation, and they can really cut though a band. (When playing outside the Euphonium is really at a disadvantage)

I have not played enough music on tenor tuba to tell you how it would work in a band, I know however that a euphonium (even given its "monochromatic" sound) blends very well with any instrument. As I discussed in an other thread, A LOT of composers don't "know how to write from euphonium" the euphonium is sometimes treated like a: Tuba, a Bassoon, a Bass clarinet, a 5th horn, and 1.5th trombone, a 4th trumpet... I think given all the repertoire I have played (which is not that much, in the grand scheme) I have had passages doubling every single band instrument... This kind of treatment, needs the most mellow and flexible tone possible.

Just my 2¢...

I've played some really excellent 19th century brass instruments, and I'd argue that today's german and austrian rotary trumpets ARE more or less turn of the century reproductions, albeit with thumb-activated tuning mechanisms added on, more high tech valves, etc.. AND trombone players do get in on the act more and more, playing peashooters for french literature, small bore, big bell german trombones with garlands for post-romantic german music, etc.. but that's not the point.

the point is, if you are an orchestral tuba player with a job where neither the 2nd nor assistant trombonist considers themselves a valve specialist and wants to play these tenor tuba parts and so you can move up to do them and let them hire a sub to play the bass/contrabass part -- then you've got some freedom (like Roger Bobo) to choose the instrument you think works the best, even if it's a modernized instrument and not exactly the same as the composer had in mind. It's a bit spendy for something you'll use the one or two times a season one of the tone poems or pictures or planets comes up, but whatever! You could also use it for the 1st part in symphony fantastique or any part that was originally for serpent/bass horn or ophicleide, etc. too.

Incidentally, I'm not sure I completely agree with roger bobo on this, as these tend to be solo parts in these pieces, independent of the bass/contrabass tuba part and the trombones, so his concerns about blend in tutti sections is a little beside the point. And also, while I agree that many of the most popular euphoniums match his description about a very consistent timbre at all dynamics, they're not all like that!

Nevertheless, if you're playing in a professional wind band in the united states in 2011 the other players in the section are going to be using a top action compensating british-style euphonium. They do sound different than the german rotary instruments, oval or tuba-form.

PMeuph wrote: Why not go for one of the less british sounding horns out there, something like a miraphone 5050 that can really get a dark sound?(which I find really hard to get on a sovereign)

That horn is actually the other horn I'm considering getting for myself. We'll just have to see which plays better for me.

PMeuph wrote: To me, the euphonium is a really great parade horn... If I had my choice tomorrow of any horn to take on parade it would be one of those 3 valve compensators from the 70's (Besson or boosey). They are light, easy to hold, good intonation, and they can really cut though a band. (When playing outside the Euphonium is really at a disadvantage)

I'm most likely not going to use my personal horn for marching but rather an Army issued horn. Euphoniums tend to be put on the right side of the formation due to the right facing bell. I'm not gonna mess with that. I do though for Concert band, small ensembles, and solo work, want to look at other options. Anyone here own an Alex 151?

I kinda like the sound of those old rotary oval "tenor tubas". It's a more noble sound than the British style euphoniums that 99% of euphers play on. The typical British style 'compensated' euph that most players play on are too pretty/bubbly a sound sometimes.

Why don't euphonium players have at least 2 different horns to play on like most tuba players? Ya know.....use the British style compensated euph on some things and use a rotary 'baryton' on other stuff? It would be nice to hear more tonal contrast from euph players instead of the same bubbly 'oatmeal' sound. Put some freakin bite into your sound once in a while and really fill it up like how good tuba players do


too "I also like those old front-action piston King baritones" ba

Best bet might be to get something comfortable and familiar without getting too far out is to get something put together. A King 2280 (the big King euph) and a .590 Cerveny 5 valve set would make a dandy horn though it may take a bit of work to make it up to pitch without looking weird. Tune 5 for 523 as the default (B natural in the staff is more important than Eb below) and putz around with it or 4 in the low range. It'll still look and sound like a big euph but will be more comfortable to hold and will give you familiar 5 valve fingerings. Piston valves are my preference but there seems to be a gap between .562 and .6xx stuff. Cerveny also makes a lot of front valve non-oval horns. Hell, an American baritone may be the easiest thing and just might not get snarky comments.

Talk to J.c. Sherman if you want a horn built. I've met him and seen some of his horns and they PLAY! He's working on something for me that I am super amped about.


Mary Ann's got a MW 49 and a King 2280 on the cheapish. I've not played a 49 but 2280's rock. Check it out.

PMeuph wrote:

Kevin Hendrick wrote: Somebody's trying to draw a line between euphoniums and tenor tubas ... the problem with that is that euphoniums *are* tenor tubas. Now, if you're specifically wondering about *rotary valve* tenor tubas, as compared with *piston valve* tenor tubas, that's a much clearer question.

I think Roger Bobo would disagree with you...

Roger Bobo wrote: Sometimes the euphonium stands apart from the way I like to think about brass instruments! And further, to be complete in my true confessions, I have to say I also feel the same way about the British Eb tuba, which is really a bass euphonium.

I suppose after a statement like that I should give some reasons. I frequently find both the Euphonium and the British Eb tuba to be monochromatic, lacking in dynamic elasticity, and always pretty; it’s pretty in pp and it’s pretty in ff. This is not the way God created sound! The human voice, string instruments and most other brass instruments become richer in their ratio of harmonics as they get louder. Not euphonium and the British Eb tuba; they just stay pretty! I can remember my frustrations in my symphony days when we were playing works with tenor tuba and a euphonium was playing the tenor tuba parts; as the brass section would get louder and the general timbre would get more exciting the euphonium just stayed pretty. It’s this same reason that in euphonium/tuba ensembles, the euphoniums quite usually can’t keep up with the tubas in dynamic energy.

Read the rest:
http://www.rogerbobo.com/musical_articl ... ions.shtml" target="_blank" target="_blank

I understand Mr. Bobo's point, having owned a Besson BBb comp tuba my self. I agree. But that's the whole point -- that is a fundamental aspect of the British concept of brass tonality, especially in brass bands.

iiipopes wrote: I understand Mr. Bobo's point, having owned a Besson BBb comp tuba my self. I agree. But that's the whole point -- that is a fundamental aspect of the British concept of brass tonality, especially in brass bands.

I think Roger Bobo's reaction was due to the fact that 1. Euphoniums are really common in North America as substitutes to the tenor tuba. 2. More and more tubists use the Besson Eb in orchestral settings.

From what I read in the article and from a conversation with one of his close acquaintances, I don't think he opposes the whole "Brtish sound" just the speific use of "British sounds" in orchestral settings...

Ask yourself this question: How would the Ride, or the Fountains sound on a Besson Eb or Bb?

PMeuph wrote:How would the Ride, or the Fountains sound on a Besson Eb or Bb?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyViqSdAbJo&t=1m32s" target="_blank

bububassboner wrote:

I'm most likely not going to use my personal horn for marching but rather an Army issued horn. Euphoniums tend to be put on the right side of the formation due to the right facing bell. I'm not gonna mess with that. I do though for Concert band, small ensembles, and solo work, want to look at other options. Anyone here own an Alex 151?[/quote]

Hey man,
if I may, as an active duty Vet, make a comment. There is a saying in the Army that says something like, a nail that sticks out, gets hammered down. I found it to be far different from any musical ensemble that I have played for (professional, community, university etc..) or any movie I have seen about the Army (esp. Stripes). The best way to get on in active duty is to not make too many waves. I have a feeling that a tenor tuba just might make those waves for you at work.

Something to consider, and BTW there are some days that I wish I would have followed my own advice.

All of that aside, I owned a Miraphone 56A and I didn't care for the sound. The sound was a bit thinner than a Wilson, the intonation was ok, but not something I wanted to invest the time in and I sold it a few years back.

I know two people (pros) that are very happy with their Alexander's, but I have not played one. I do have a Chinese tenor tuba on order, not sure when it will be delivered, but if you send me a PM i can give you a review when it gets here. If you want another opinion on it you can look here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45695" target="_blank" target="_blank

hope that helps and good luck man,
Bill

arpthark wrote:

PMeuph wrote:How would the Ride, or the Fountains sound on a Besson Eb or Bb?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyViqSdAbJo&t=1m32s" target="_blank" target="_blank

Argh, Beat me to it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyViqSdAbJo

MartyNeilan wrote:

arpthark wrote:

PMeuph wrote:How would the Ride, or the Fountains sound on a Besson Eb or Bb?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyViqSdAbJo&t=1m32s" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Argh, Beat me to it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyViqSdAbJo

Now that I re-read my post I can see what I forgot to tag-on to the end of my rhetorical question...

Please read it like this: How would the Ride, or the Fountains sound on a Besson Eb or Bb in the context of an American orchestra?

Hypothetically, could you imagine John Fletcher subbing in Arnold Jacobs on the CSO Low brass excerpt CD?